Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC

[Jason B]

I believe that salvation by grace through faith is completely compatible with water baptism in Jesus name, a Spirit filled life, and holiness unto the LORD.

If someone truly has saving faith (living faith of James 2) that faith will be given expression, both in water baptism, and in a life which bears the fruit of the Spirit.

[Cindy]

I hope you and your family find where you should be.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Excellent!!!!!

I agree!! ROTFL!!!

[commonsense]

Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath

[/B]

And thats why these so called ' liberal' upc churches not so liberal. Same santa claus, different suit. Yes, technically people dont have to obey the dress codes if they are not in ministry. But they are shut out of fellowship, shunned or given the cold shoulder if they dont. Hence why you have many people who simply abide by the dress codes to be accepted. Peer pressure masked under conviction.

Totally agree!! I want to go to a UPC assembly..........but I'm too old for the 2nd class citizen nonsense. I miss the worship, Oneness teaching, and fellowship but

Quote of the day : "Peer pressure masked under conviction".

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I believe that salvation by grace through faith is completely compatible with water baptism in Jesus name, a Spirit filled life, and holiness unto the LORD.

If someone truly has saving faith (living faith of James 2) that faith will be given expression, both in water baptism, and in a life which bears the fruit of the Spirit.

This is what the Bible teaches you know.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by commonsense

Totally agree!! I want to go to a UPC assembly..........but I'm too old for the 2nd class citizen nonsense. I miss the worship, Oneness teaching, and fellowship but

Quote of the day : "Peer pressure masked under conviction".

I've been suprised by the number of people who are echoing this sentiment.

If the leaders in the UPC would be open to reconciliation, they would end up with a revival. If they are not, they will continue to lose all their younger people, and continue down a path of irrelavancy. That would be a shame. I personally think that many of the local pastors are alot more open to a shift from traditions and legalism, to a more Biblical expression of Christianity. But they are held down by the politics of the org, and intimidated by some "old timers" who have a strangle hold on districts, and almost unquestioned authority.

I know PERSONALLY that there are oneness pastors who privately question the initial evidence doctrine, the necessity of standards, consider trinitarians saved (or at least not lost on the account of the fact they are trinitarian), and a host of other things that they are not comfortable preaching, but will discuss privately off the record. Some of these men are very recognizable preachers, some obscure. But I've had several conversations with ministerial friends, and I was absolutely shocked at how widespread views and especially questions are amongst the ministry, who notice the inconsistencies, especially in this internet/information age. And most whom I've discussed things with (in the past-in person) were very cordial, with the exception of a couple who essentailly tried to intimidate me and tell me I was going to hell if I didn't believe the 3 step doctrine. (Those preachers are the internet have been anything but cordial-they are out for blood). There was one UPC pastor who came to visit me at my home, woefully unprepared, who did not even know that the UPC manual even allows for "one step" salvation (if you will-I prefer Justification by Faith) in that it says in the Articles of Faith, under the subheading REPENTANCE, "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing, and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ...."

I think that these issues should be discussed. Open minded, with open Bibles.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I know PERSONALLY that there are oneness pastors who privately question the initial evidence doctrine, the necessity of standards, consider trinitarians saved (or at least not lost on the account of the fact they are trinitarian), and a host of other things that they are not comfortable preaching, but will discuss privately off the record. Some of these men are very recognizable preachers, some obscure. But I've had several conversations with ministerial friends, and I was absolutely shocked at how widespread views and especially questions are amongst the ministry, who notice the inconsistencies, especially in this internet/information age.

Jason, years ago I posted on this forum or its predecessor about an experience I had around 7 or 8 years ago when a UPC evangelist was passing through town and spent the night at our house.

I had met the young man before but in social settings and had never had a "church" conversation with him. I was shocked to here him say exactly some of the same things I have quoted from your post. He did not get into salvation doctrine but regarding "standards" he told me I would be shocked at how many UPC pastors, once they get to know him and trust him, would confide that they did not believe the legalism, dress code, etc but did not know how to do anything differently because of peer and organizational pressure (not to mention, I am sure, deacon and saint pressure if they pastor a church that has been psychologically conditioned for decades).

[jen4yeshua]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I've been suprised by the number of people who are echoing this sentiment.

If the leaders in the UPC would be open to reconciliation, they would end up with a revival. If they are not, they will continue to lose all their younger people, and continue down a path of irrelavancy. That would be a shame. I personally think that many of the local pastors are alot more open to a shift from traditions and legalism, to a more Biblical expression of Christianity. But they are held down by the politics of the org, and intimidated by some "old timers" who have a strangle hold on districts, and almost unquestioned authority.

I know PERSONALLY that there are oneness pastors who privately question the initial evidence doctrine, the necessity of standards, consider trinitarians saved (or at least not lost on the account of the fact they are trinitarian), and a host of other things that they are not comfortable preaching, but will discuss privately off the record. Some of these men are very recognizable preachers, some obscure. But I've had several conversations with ministerial friends, and I was absolutely shocked at how widespread views and especially questions are amongst the ministry, who notice the inconsistencies, especially in this internet/information age. And most whom I've discussed things with (in the past-in person) were very cordial, with the exception of a couple who essentailly tried to intimidate me and tell me I was going to hell if I didn't believe the 3 step doctrine. (Those preachers are the internet have been anything but cordial-they are out for blood). There was one UPC pastor who came to visit me at my home, woefully unprepared, who did not even know that the UPC manual even allows for "one step" salvation (if you will-I prefer Justification by Faith) in that it says in the Articles of Faith, under the subheading REPENTANCE, "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing, and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ...."

I think that these issues should be discussed. Open minded, with open Bibles.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by CC1

A modern day phenomena is the UPC church that appears "liberal" in that it will let attend without hassle people who do not adhere to the dress code. However, as you mentioned, those people are not allowed in leadership positions.

By leadership positions I don't mean just church staff. It usually means they cannot teach SS, sing in the choir, etc, etc

It was best put by a AFF member who is a friend of mine. Years ago he and his wife attended one of these type UPC churches for awhile but at some point could no longer do so. He asked the pastor to lunch and told him that he enjoyed his preaching, etc but that he and his wife were never going to be more than second class citizens there because they did not adhere to the dress code (wife had cut hair, wore makeup, etc) and he did not want to live his life attending a church he could not fully participate in.

I don't agree that not being in leadership makes someone a second class citizen.

In churches without dress codes they often have some standard or doctrine that just be believed and obeyed to be in leadership.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath

[/b]

And thats why these so called ' liberal' upc churches not so liberal. Same santa claus, different suit. Yes, technically people dont have to obey the dress codes if they are not in ministry. But they are shut out of fellowship, shunned or given the cold shoulder if they dont. Hence why you have many people who simply abide by the dress codes to be accepted. Peer pressure masked under conviction.

No they aren't. Just because they don't serve in leadership positions does not make them shut out of fellowship or shunned or given the cold shoulder. If that happened that church is not liberal UPC.