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03-09-2013, 04:34 PM
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Saved by Grace
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
I believe that salvation by grace through faith is completely compatible with water baptism in Jesus name, a Spirit filled life, and holiness unto the LORD.
If someone truly has saving faith (living faith of James 2) that faith will be given expression, both in water baptism, and in a life which bears the fruit of the Spirit.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
Last edited by Jason B; 03-09-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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03-09-2013, 05:06 PM
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Forever Loved Admin
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 26,537
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
I hope you and your family find where you should be.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
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03-09-2013, 05:12 PM
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crakjak
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgcraig
Excellent!!!!!
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I agree!! ROTFL!!!
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03-09-2013, 08:18 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: following the lewis and clark trail
Posts: 2,476
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath
[/B]
And thats why these so called ' liberal' upc churches not so liberal. Same santa claus, different suit. Yes, technically people dont have to obey the dress codes if they are not in ministry. But they are shut out of fellowship, shunned or given the cold shoulder if they dont. Hence why you have many people who simply abide by the dress codes to be accepted. Peer pressure masked under conviction.
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Totally agree!! I want to go to a UPC assembly..........but I'm too old for the 2nd class citizen nonsense. I miss the worship, Oneness teaching, and fellowship but
Quote of the day : "Peer pressure masked under conviction".
__________________
"Le sens commun n'est pas si commun."
(Common sense is not so common.)
Voltaire
Common sense is genius dressed in working clothes.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
William James
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03-09-2013, 09:11 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In His Hands
Posts: 13,914
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo
I believe that salvation by grace through faith is completely compatible with water baptism in Jesus name, a Spirit filled life, and holiness unto the LORD.
If someone truly has saving faith (living faith of James 2) that faith will be given expression, both in water baptism, and in a life which bears the fruit of the Spirit.
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This is what the Bible teaches you know.
__________________
"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
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03-09-2013, 09:15 PM
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Saved by Grace
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by commonsense
Totally agree!! I want to go to a UPC assembly..........but I'm too old for the 2nd class citizen nonsense. I miss the worship, Oneness teaching, and fellowship but
Quote of the day : "Peer pressure masked under conviction".
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I've been suprised by the number of people who are echoing this sentiment.
If the leaders in the UPC would be open to reconciliation, they would end up with a revival. If they are not, they will continue to lose all their younger people, and continue down a path of irrelavancy. That would be a shame. I personally think that many of the local pastors are alot more open to a shift from traditions and legalism, to a more Biblical expression of Christianity. But they are held down by the politics of the org, and intimidated by some "old timers" who have a strangle hold on districts, and almost unquestioned authority.
I know PERSONALLY that there are oneness pastors who privately question the initial evidence doctrine, the necessity of standards, consider trinitarians saved (or at least not lost on the account of the fact they are trinitarian), and a host of other things that they are not comfortable preaching, but will discuss privately off the record. Some of these men are very recognizable preachers, some obscure. But I've had several conversations with ministerial friends, and I was absolutely shocked at how widespread views and especially questions are amongst the ministry, who notice the inconsistencies, especially in this internet/information age. And most whom I've discussed things with (in the past-in person) were very cordial, with the exception of a couple who essentailly tried to intimidate me and tell me I was going to hell if I didn't believe the 3 step doctrine. (Those preachers are the internet have been anything but cordial-they are out for blood). There was one UPC pastor who came to visit me at my home, woefully unprepared, who did not even know that the UPC manual even allows for "one step" salvation (if you will-I prefer Justification by Faith) in that it says in the Articles of Faith, under the subheading REPENTANCE, "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing, and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ...."
I think that these issues should be discussed. Open minded, with open Bibles.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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03-09-2013, 09:56 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,840
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo
I know PERSONALLY that there are oneness pastors who privately question the initial evidence doctrine, the necessity of standards, consider trinitarians saved (or at least not lost on the account of the fact they are trinitarian), and a host of other things that they are not comfortable preaching, but will discuss privately off the record. Some of these men are very recognizable preachers, some obscure. But I've had several conversations with ministerial friends, and I was absolutely shocked at how widespread views and especially questions are amongst the ministry, who notice the inconsistencies, especially in this internet/information age.
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Jason, years ago I posted on this forum or its predecessor about an experience I had around 7 or 8 years ago when a UPC evangelist was passing through town and spent the night at our house.
I had met the young man before but in social settings and had never had a "church" conversation with him. I was shocked to here him say exactly some of the same things I have quoted from your post. He did not get into salvation doctrine but regarding "standards" he told me I would be shocked at how many UPC pastors, once they get to know him and trust him, would confide that they did not believe the legalism, dress code, etc but did not know how to do anything differently because of peer and organizational pressure (not to mention, I am sure, deacon and saint pressure if they pastor a church that has been psychologically conditioned for decades).
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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03-09-2013, 09:58 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 251
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo
I've been suprised by the number of people who are echoing this sentiment.
If the leaders in the UPC would be open to reconciliation, they would end up with a revival. If they are not, they will continue to lose all their younger people, and continue down a path of irrelavancy. That would be a shame. I personally think that many of the local pastors are alot more open to a shift from traditions and legalism, to a more Biblical expression of Christianity. But they are held down by the politics of the org, and intimidated by some "old timers" who have a strangle hold on districts, and almost unquestioned authority.
I know PERSONALLY that there are oneness pastors who privately question the initial evidence doctrine, the necessity of standards, consider trinitarians saved (or at least not lost on the account of the fact they are trinitarian), and a host of other things that they are not comfortable preaching, but will discuss privately off the record. Some of these men are very recognizable preachers, some obscure. But I've had several conversations with ministerial friends, and I was absolutely shocked at how widespread views and especially questions are amongst the ministry, who notice the inconsistencies, especially in this internet/information age. And most whom I've discussed things with (in the past-in person) were very cordial, with the exception of a couple who essentailly tried to intimidate me and tell me I was going to hell if I didn't believe the 3 step doctrine. (Those preachers are the internet have been anything but cordial-they are out for blood). There was one UPC pastor who came to visit me at my home, woefully unprepared, who did not even know that the UPC manual even allows for "one step" salvation (if you will-I prefer Justification by Faith) in that it says in the Articles of Faith, under the subheading REPENTANCE, "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing, and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ...."
I think that these issues should be discussed. Open minded, with open Bibles.
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03-09-2013, 10:00 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
A modern day phenomena is the UPC church that appears "liberal" in that it will let attend without hassle people who do not adhere to the dress code. However, as you mentioned, those people are not allowed in leadership positions.
By leadership positions I don't mean just church staff. It usually means they cannot teach SS, sing in the choir, etc, etc
It was best put by a AFF member who is a friend of mine. Years ago he and his wife attended one of these type UPC churches for awhile but at some point could no longer do so. He asked the pastor to lunch and told him that he enjoyed his preaching, etc but that he and his wife were never going to be more than second class citizens there because they did not adhere to the dress code (wife had cut hair, wore makeup, etc) and he did not want to live his life attending a church he could not fully participate in.
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I don't agree that not being in leadership makes someone a second class citizen.
In churches without dress codes they often have some standard or doctrine that just be believed and obeyed to be in leadership.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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03-09-2013, 10:03 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,787
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Re: Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath
[/b]
And thats why these so called ' liberal' upc churches not so liberal. Same santa claus, different suit. Yes, technically people dont have to obey the dress codes if they are not in ministry. But they are shut out of fellowship, shunned or given the cold shoulder if they dont. Hence why you have many people who simply abide by the dress codes to be accepted. Peer pressure masked under conviction.
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No they aren't. Just because they don't serve in leadership positions does not make them shut out of fellowship or shunned or given the cold shoulder. If that happened that church is not liberal UPC.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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