Trinity Diagnosis - Page 10

seekerman · #91 12-20-2012, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny

Unless you believe Jesus is God manifest in flesh you do not believe in the Bible at all unless it is a New World Translation or Joseph Smiths version.

I thought we were talking about the scriptural requirement that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

I find plenty in the bible which teaches that Jesus isn't God. Of course there are scriptures which folks use to prove that He was God. They're usually the same half-dozen or so.

John 1:1
Rev 1:8
Heb 1:8
John 20:28

There may be a couple more, but what is very rare is finding those who will discuss the subject openly, honestly and courteously when opposing scripture is presented. Almost always, it's a one sided 'discussion'.

Pliny · #92 12-20-2012, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman

I thought we were talking about the scriptural requirement that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

I find plenty in the bible which teaches that Jesus isn't God. Of course there are scriptures which folks use to prove that He was God. They're usually the same half-dozen or so.

John 1:1
Rev 1:8
Heb 1:8
John 20:28

There may be a couple more, but what is very rare is finding those who will discuss the subject openly, honestly and courteously when opposing scripture is presented. Almost always, it's a one sided 'discussion'.

His authority over nature declares His divinity.
His authority over disease declares His divinity.
His authority over the spirit world declares His divinity.
His authority over sin (by forgiving sin) declares His divinity.
His name is Emmanuel which means "The God with us."

So you do not believe in the divinity of Christ?
If not you do not believe in the Jesus of scripture.

Pliny · #93 12-20-2012, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny

Do you believe the dual nature of Christ?
Do you believe a man of Adam's race was required to make atonement for mankind?
Do you believe Jesus had to be deity to forgive sins?
Do you believe the man Christ had to be every bit "man" or some kind of hybrid or a lifeless carcass?
Do you believe heaven was empty when Christ walked the earth?

Bump...

seekerman · #94 12-20-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny

His authority over nature declares His divinity.
His authority over disease declares His divinity.

How? The Apostles had authority over sickness and disease.

Quote:

His authority over the spirit world declares His divinity.

How? The Apostles had authority over the spirit world.

Quote:

His authority over sin (by forgiving sin) declares His divinity.

How? The Apostles had authority over sin.

Quote:

His name is Emmanuel which means "The God with us."

God was in Christ with us.

Quote:

So you do not believe in the divinity of Christ?

Nope.

Quote:

If not you do not believe in the Jesus of scripture.

Sure I do. I just don't believe in your understanding of the Jesus of scripture.

Pliny · #95 12-20-2012, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman

How? The Apostles had authority over sickness and disease.

How? The Apostles had authority over the spirit world.

How? The Apostles had authority over sin.

God was in Christ with us.

Nope.

Sure I do. I just don't believe in your understanding of the Jesus of scripture.

The Disciples were given their authority by the only one who had the authority. In other words their authority rested in Christ. His authority rested in Himself. Big difference.

Mat 10:1 And summoning His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every illness.

I asked if you believe the divinity of Christ you said no.
You cannot divorce the Biblical Christ from the gospel therefore, you believe another gospel.

Scripture is clear that Christ is "God with us". You are clear in disagreeing with the clear reading of the Bible. Your Christ is different for the Biblical Christ.
Mat 1:23 .."Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."..
You sound as if you believe in some form of Adoptionism.

seekerman · #96 12-20-2012, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny

The Disciples were given their authority by the only one who had the authority. In other words their authority rested in Christ. His authority rested in Himself. Big difference.

Mat 10:1 And summoning His twelve disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every illness.

Someone gave Jesus authority also.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Quote:

I asked if you believe the divinity of Christ you said no.
You cannot divorce the Biblical Christ from the gospel therefore, you believe another gospel.

I'm not attempting to divorce the biblical Christ from the gospel. My view is that He's not God. Your view that I believe another gospel is simply that.....your view.

Quote:

Scripture is clear that Christ is "God with us".

Yes, God was in Christ...God with us.

Quote:

You are clear in disagreeing with the clear reading of the Bible. Your Christ is different for the Biblical Christ.

Again, that's simply your personal views and understanding of the bible. I believe that a clear reading of the bible, not snippets here and there extracted to support a theory, reveals that Jesus is the Son of God, not God.

Quote:

Mat 1:23 .."Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."..
You sound as if you believe in some form of Adoptionism.

Nope, I believe in a simple message. God is God and that God is the God and Father of Jesus the Christ, the Son of God.

Pliny · #97 12-20-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman

Someone gave Jesus authority also.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

I'm not attempting to divorce the biblical Christ from the gospel. My view is that He's not God. Your view that I believe another gospel is simply that.....your view.

Yes, God was in Christ...God with us.

Again, that's simply your personal views and understanding of the bible. I believe that a clear reading of the bible, not snippets here and there extracted to support a theory, reveals that Jesus is the Son of God, not God.

Nope, I believe in a simple message. God is God and that God is the God and Father of Jesus the Christ, the Son of God.

What was said must always be said in context. Context includes the the text, historical context, grammatical context, sociological context etc.

Jesus is the visible manifestation of the invisible God (Col. 1:15; Jn. 1:14). As such He had authority before Matt. 28 because of His deity. Jesus could not give authority He did not have.

It is interesting you say:
Yes, God was in Christ...God with us."

Yet deny He is god. You are talking in circles just like Trinitarian's...

Phil. 2 tells us that Christ is God and man. As God He set aside all His divine prerogatives and lived the life of a man. Calvary depends upon this. Clearly no man could make atonement for all have sinned (Rom. 3:23 etc.). Therefore God came in the likeness of men by laying aside His divine prerogatives and lived the life of a man. Now that Calvary is accomplished He takes back up the divine prerogatives He once laid down for the salvation of mankind.

Deny all you want but your Christ is another Christ thus another gospel.

AreYouReady? · #98 12-20-2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny

Are you referring to the name represented?
Pliny was an ancient historian known as Pliny the Younger. My kids think I am old enough to be him! LOL!

Good evening Pliny. Hope your day was good today.

I did not get to address this yesterday. Thank goodness you differentiated which pliny you are. There are many and I could have mistaken you to be this one.

Pliny the Elder, the flagship beer of the Russian River Brewing Company

Pliny the Younger, a seasonal (February) beer of the Russian River Brewing Company

AreYouReady? · #99 12-20-2012, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The armpit of America? Well that does not surprise me one bit

Uh...I don't think houston is from Mississippi.

Pliny · #**100** 12-20-2012, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Good evening Pliny. Hope your day was good today.

I did not get to address this yesterday. Thank goodness you differentiated which pliny you are. There are many and I could have mistaken you to be this one.

Pliny the Elder, the flagship beer of the Russian River Brewing Company

Pliny the Younger, a seasonal (February) beer of the Russian River Brewing Company

That is funny!

Thankfully I have been in church long enough to have forgotten many of those things! I did not know those existed!