The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Good point!

It is deeply ingrained! I had a late night conversation with a friend from church last night via telephone. She called to ask me to pray regarding her transportation situation. Her family is without a car that runs and they live out in the country. Her daughter is only 8 and it is a long walk to the bus stop and we've had a lot of heavy rain and she has missed school. I know her husband makes a good living so I asked if she would mind sharing what they are spending their money on as supernatural help is not always required for a natural problem and having gone through debt counseling many years ago I am now a stickler for budgets.

Now these folks do have a lot of bills above a mortgage and utilities... medical expenses and no insurance, a son with fines to probation, just to name a few. Really nothing they could just quit paying unless they let their furniture be repossessed. And they tithe and give offerings of $600 a month to the church. So I suggested that maybe they could cut that back enough to make a payment on an economy car. Maybe by half. She just can't she says because she believes that something terrible will happen. That her husband will loose his job or that her son will fall back into drugs.

So I asked if she had stopped paying tithe when her son fell into drugs the first time or when any of the calamities that befell their family and left them without transportation were happening... Well of course not she says... she has ALWAYS BEEN FAITHFUL.

So knowing that the pastor lives in an upscale suburb (not in the area where the church is), just got a new lake house and has two cars and a Harley Davidson motor cycle and the associate pastor takes some really nice vacations and is sporting a couple of nice new suits and the fellowship hall was just redone... I asked her about maybe going to the church for help... But of course she feels she can't do that because they do have a house (they live in an older model mobile home) and food... and well... you just don't ask your church for help unless you are without groceries...Where did these ideas come from? Well from the ministry that lets their congregants go without while they have a huge surplus of course! Who would want to look like a tightwad in front of those people?

Many treat this as a badge of honor thoguh. It compounds the problem. Most church folks are programmed to NEVER ask where the tithe goes once they give. So it never seems to dawn on them to look at where a chunk of it goes. They can be scraping by in relative poverty yet never even question whether it is prudent that the Pastor drives a luxury car and lives in the really nice neighborhood.

In fact, they thinkit is somethign to be proud of. I have heard it said that they should be proud of the fact that their pastor drives the nicest vehicles and lives in the nice house. They should be happy their Pastor isn't scraping by and has a good income. So many celebrate that the man of god lives it up while many of them suffer. Further, they are taught that they have no right to question it. After all, once you pay the tithe it is between God and the Pastor how it is used. Oh and of course...you dare not "touch the anointed" by bringing up the fact that it seems odd that they make all that money while many in the church are barely paying their bills.

I don't care if the man of God is paid. I really think it is the ideal model to have a full time Pastor. BUT I think it is just plain abuse of funds for them to live dramatically ABOVE their congregants. How can you relate to your saints anymore when you are living far better than most of them?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Aquila

When a church becomes logistical problem you have an awesome situation and a golden opportunity! You should speak to the entire house church about how large it’s become and how this is the normal course for a house church. Explain the need to multiply by splitting up the group. Ask for them to pray that God put “hosting” on the hearts of a family in attendance. Also, it’s good to assess who lives where on a large map. Determine where the hosts live. Find a way to start a new house church nearby or closer to a few families that live quite a distance. Then assess who in your house church shows leadership gifts. Leadership gifts can be seen in knowledge of the Word, good temperament, being prayerful, a desire to share and edify the body, a faithful family, etc. Pull them aside and begin mentoring them by allowing them to lead the meetings. As their relationship and leadership skills grow with the group, slowly hand them the reigns. Then YOU take the new family willing to host a new house church and begin meeting with them in their home. You might also ask for a hand full of people to come with you (depending on the group). Now you have two house churches! If both house churches are healthy, both are going to grow until they are logistically problematic. Then you train the elder you left in charge of the first to mentor another leader. You then begin mentoring a leader in the new house church you’re attending. You should eventually see both house churches multiply together. Now you’re at four house churches! Lol

It’s actually very fun and very rewarding seeing the Kingdom of God grow. It sounds to me like you didn’t have a strategy for multiplication and your house church became way too much to handle.

In this region, they call them cell groups...sort of like a human cell divides and becomes two...four...eight and so on. They were catching on in the 90s here but it seems to have gone flat. People like the brick and mortar buildings and in many cases, some churches have a "prestige" reputation if one attends there.

[houston]

In a church that I used to attend, we held a business meeting every yr. The finances were disclosed. All money accounted for.

Everyone attended the meeting. Only members could cast a vote. But that was pretty much anyone 18+ that was born again, faithful in attendance, and completed a set of classes for discipleship.

The pastor really encouraged the people to vote on everything. He emphasized that it was not his, but our church.

Sadly nobody wanted to have an opinion that was different than that of the pastor. The people were given the opportunity to make changes, but would rather let one man run the show.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

It wasn't a house church, and never intended to be one. It was just a prayer meeting, comprised of members of our church. It just started out as something small that my parents wanted to do, just a few families, but it kept growing and growing.

I just used that as an example of why people tend to move into church buildings.

I'm not against house churches, I think they can be great if they are structured correctly. I just don't think we should view them through rose-colored glasses.

You make some great points, and have good strategies. But there can still be logistical issues for someone just starting out. The church I attend has been discussing doing home meetings during the week. But there are a few obstacles we've discussed. For one thing, our church members are very spread out. We are from one end to the other of a very large metroplex area. Several of our members drive an hour to get there. For them to go on to someone's house would make their drive even longer. We just don't have any really central houses.

Most of our women work outside the home. I work, and have a houseful of kids, too. But I'd want my house CLEAN if people were coming over. So I'd have to get off of work and go straight to scrubbing and straightening... to be honest it would be pretty stressful for me. (maybe I should be more spiritual, but there you go )

And then you have the issue of having enough people capable of leadership. If we split off into several homes, we'd need leaders for those meetings. Our church is very new, with a lot of new members. We simply do not yet have enough capable leaders at this time.

So logistically, for us right now, the church is the best meeting place.

I agree with you. It sounds like meeting at a central building would be best at the moment.

I have a question: You said that your people are spread out to the point where you couldn't plant local home groups. How do they receive biblical fellowship and community?

I ask this because my previous church had the same problem. Most only fellowship before services for 15 minutes three times a week. Some families go out to eat after church on occasion, but not many. Before I left I discovered that many felt terribly alone, with no one to really open up to unless they had family in the church. But they had no idea what to do and felt attached to the pastor because he's a good teacher. I talked to my pastor about house churches and cell groups and he got weird. I left because frankly...no one fellowshipped and I was on my own any anyway. It was a great church, just lonely.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Many treat this as a badge of honor thoguh. It compounds the problem. Most church folks are programmed to NEVER ask where the tithe goes once they give. So it never seems to dawn on them to look at where a chunk of it goes. They can be scraping by in relative poverty yet never even question whether it is prudent that the Pastor drives a luxury car and lives in the really nice neighborhood.

In fact, they thinkit is somethign to be proud of. I have heard it said that they should be proud of the fact that their pastor drives the nicest vehicles and lives in the nice house. They should be happy their Pastor isn't scraping by and has a good income. So many celebrate that the man of god lives it up while many of them suffer. Further, they are taught that they have no right to question it. After all, once you pay the tithe it is between God and the Pastor how it is used. Oh and of course...you dare not "touch the anointed" by bringing up the fact that it seems odd that they make all that money while many in the church are barely paying their bills.

I don't care if the man of God is paid. I really think it is the ideal model to have a full time Pastor. BUT I think it is just plain abuse of funds for them to live dramatically ABOVE their congregants. How can you relate to your saints anymore when you are living far better than most of them?

That is EXACTLY it... in our last church the people pooled money to buy Mrs. Pastor a new Lexus... it was the only one on the parking lot and sometimes looked really weird when parked next to somebodies old beater upper.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

In this region, they call them cell groups...sort of like a human cell divides and becomes two...four...eight and so on. They were catching on in the 90s here but it seems to have gone flat. People like the brick and mortar buildings and in many cases, some churches have a "prestige" reputation if one attends there.

Cell groups often fall flat. If you still have the cell group network in place, breathe new life into them by turning them into house churches. Delegate baptism, the Lord's Supper, and teaching content to the house church elders. Also allow the elders to attend a counselors work shop, then turn counseling and church discipline over to them. Lastly, only have one large service on Sundays, allowing the house churches to independently scheduel their meetings and frequency. We do this and it's really nice.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by houston

In a church that I used to attend, we held a business meeting every yr. The finances were disclosed. All money accounted for.

Everyone attended the meeting. Only members could cast a vote. But that was pretty much anyone 18+ that was born again, faithful in attendance, and completed a set of classes for discipleship.

The pastor really encouraged the people to vote on everything. He emphasized that it was not his, but our church.

Sadly nobody wanted to have an opinion that was different than that of the pastor. The people were given the opportunity to make changes, but would rather let one man run the show.

Yep. Sadly the truth. The body over the years has allowed, if not preferred, the non-biblical Pastoral rule model we now live with.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I agree with you. It sounds like meeting at a central building would be best at the moment.

I have a question: You said that your people are spread out to the point where you couldn't plant local home groups. How do they receive biblical fellowship and community?

I ask this because my previous church had the same problem. Most only fellowship before services for 15 minutes three times a week. Some families go out to eat after church on occasion, but not many. Before I left I discovered that many felt terribly alone, with no one to really open up to unless they had family in the church. But they had no idea what to do and felt attached to the pastor because he's a good teacher. I talked to my pastor about house churches and cell groups and he got weird. I left because frankly...no one fellowshipped and I was on my own any anyway. It was a great church, just lonely.

We try to have a church fellowship at least once a month. Everyone is welcome. We have them at the church, or someone's house, or meet somewhere for an activity like bowling, going out to eat, whatever. We also tend to hang around after church, we text, facebook, talk on the phone. The people who participate in these activities usually find relationships growing and bonds being formed.

We also have a men's fellowship and a ladies fellowship once a month at the church. We have a singles group that gets together, too.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Oh yeah, the Pastor is the Watchman that watches for your soul! I Guess the pastor is the paid one!

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I've never had a Pastor who cared enough for my soul to minister to me. But they sure did take my money pretty quick.

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Yeah, what AQP said. I had a pastor who told me to my face I'd go to hell for not paying tithes. He didn't answer any of my agruments and instead just said I was being rebellious, but beside that disagreement our relationship was good and endured until his death. I have no doubt he cared greatly for me, he just was woefully unstudies on the subject and accepted the teaching that was passed on to him without doing any additional research.

I strongly disagree with my former pastor on this topic, bu I have no doubt he cared and continues to care about me. I been out of that church 6 months,but atil pray for him, his family and the church almost daily.

I believe we ought to speak out against false doctrine and error wherever we see it. When one speaks from the pulpit wthey should be accountable for what they say. I don't think we give preachers a pass just because we are friends with them.

BUT

Such blanket statements cause me a slight bit of regret for being so vocal on the topic. What I want is to discuss the actual teachings and quitefrankly dismantle the unbiblical theology. I don't want to stir up people who are mad at former pastors. Not necessarily accusing you of that AYR, just want to keep the focus on the doctrinal content.

Brother Jason, I'm glad you are not accusing me of being mad at former Pastors. However, threads of this type are going to bring out stories of many other people's experiences and observations with their pastors and churches. I think that if people have experienced some sort of traumatic event caused by how spiritual leaders have treated others, it will bring out the hurt feelings one has felt at that time of their life. Relating these experiences are not necessarily "being mad" at former pastors. You happened to have had a pastor who still loved and cared for you even if he did tell you that you were going to hell if you did not pay tithe. Not all pastors are that way.

Now, after reading the attempts of many here to discuss the tithing doctrine with their pastors and seeing that only one pastor who knew it was not scriptural, but would not do anything about it, what makes anybody think that the prosperity doctrine can be scripturally dismantled in a forum thread?

When I read comments such as this:

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Then I was informed that I was "not as smart as I think I am" and that "before I even get to the foot of the mountain" he had already been to the peak and back. That was his way of letting me know he was spiritually and intellectually superior to me I guess.

It makes me feel that no matter how one tries to discuss the tithing doctrine with preachers, you get the superior type of attitude by the pastor displayed above. Because the pastor went to seminary school and you did not, you could not possibly have enough of the Holy Ghost in you to correctly divide the scripture and keep it in context with what the writer is trying to convey?

I am going to relate my husband's experience with a local church. They had Wednesday night bible studies on the tithe. The Pastor said to the Assistant Pastor during the collection that when you need money, sometimes you have to fleece the sheep. Then the next two Wednesday services, the elder Pastor stepped down and allowed the younger Pastor to teach on the tithe.

My husband waited until the second bible study was over, then asked to speak to both of them after the service was over. He sat between the two of them and talked to them about what they were teaching the congregation about the tithe. They had the usual discussion about Ananias and Sapphria, Abram, etc.

The next week, in the prayer room before services, the younger Pastor spoke out loudly for the saints to really pray, "that their church was being attacked".


The prosperity preachers are setting an example for the small local pastor when they build mega-churches, preach heavily on the tithe and offering doctrine, plus building funds and missions, although I have absolutely NO problem with giving to missions. In fact, I think missions ought to be first in line, because they are going to places most Americans would never want to go. Unfortunately, missions were not first in any of the churches I have ever attended. Many small local pastors have dreams themselves of pastoring a large church.

The only way I see to stop the prosperity doctrine is to (1) Pray that God intervenes (2)Educate the people with genuine scripture about the dangers of this false doctrine.

But then there are several problems here. Many people place so much faith in what their Pastor says, that he could not possibly be wrong about tithing. They will not listen to anybody else even if you show them what scripture has to say. The second problem is when some pastors feel that someone else brings genuine scripture that contradicts what they teach, a character assassination of that saint starts to take place and that saint is no longer welcomed in the church body. They will say the saint is "touching the anointed".

The American church has lost sight of what the church is supposed to do, instead they are looking at the American dream of opportunity.

The preaching of the prosperity doctrine is a doctrine of greed and selfishness.

We as a people have forgotten that the main focus of church is preaching the Gospel of Christ and His saving grace. Christ told us to take up our cross and follow Him. He lived meek and lowly, "with no place to lay his head".

It is said that we can fight fire with fire? Well, it's up to people to fight the fire of hell with the fire of the Holy Ghost. People will show their fruit of the Spirit when they choose to live meek and lowly like our Savior did, or if they choose to have big homes, several autos and vacation homes etc. when they preach money more than they preach Christ.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

We try to have a church fellowship at least once a month. Everyone is welcome. We have them at the church, or someone's house, or meet somewhere for an activity like bowling, going out to eat, whatever. We also tend to hang around after church, we text, facebook, talk on the phone. The people who participate in these activities usually find relationships growing and bonds being formed.

We also have a men's fellowship and a ladies fellowship once a month at the church. We have a singles group that gets together, too.

I remember when the church I attended tried a men's fellowship. It wasn't too shabby. We formed some good friendships... but we didn't get down into the nitty gritty like I've discovered in house churching. In our "check in" meetings the men gather in the basement and we go around the circle. Every man reports on his spiritual progress towards imaging Jesus. We talk about our lives, our marriages, our relationships, our children, our work, our struggles, and... our sins. It's not uncommon for there not to be a dry eye in that basement as we confess our weaknesses and sins to one another, expressing how badly we want to be like Jesus, and pray for one another. In the church I attended... the guys seemed too afraid to confess sin to one another. I don't know why. I suspect it was because the standard was so high, no one wanted to be looked down upon. But in the house church people lovingly ask the difficult questions you might be afraid or ashamed to answer. People confess the hidden sins they aren't comfortable talking about. It's very cleansing and life changing.