The Proverbs 11 Thread

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Explain the bolded.

The way The Message translates proverbs 11 is NOT about how they decided to translate but an issue of what textual reading they chose to translate from

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes? That's also what I said. I quoted it several times now.Ive been saying for ever that it's about influencing people. Doesn't influencing people to be your friends not include impressing on the unrighteous the pathway of righteous, because they are your friends and because since you are able to be their friend not only would you want to help them, they are more likely to listen?

But it's such a "generic" proverb. We can follow the road down and say "therefore, wise people do this and that..." but we should do that without saying the Proverb is saying that.

I recall you using the word capture. But it was usually afterward then tied to "capturing fish" later, tied to harvesting, etc... which is not what is intended here.

That was a variant view... not the one I prefer, but another example that this is something general, proverb-like, not a law or foreshadowing of anything else. It's the "blessing" clause in the proverb.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The way The Message translates proverbs 11 is NOT about how they decided to translate but an issue of what textual reading they chose to translate from

What textual reading did they use?

[Praxeas]

Here are some more translations
winneth souls—(Compare Margin) to do them good as opposed to Pr 6:25; Ez 13:18 (compare Lu 5:10).

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (Pr 11:30). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Wins souls in verse 30 does not mean soul-winning or evangelism. Since “win” is literally “attract or take,” the idea may be that a righteous person attracts others to wisdom. This fits the thought in the first part of the verse of a tree giving life to others by its fruit.

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (Pr 11:30). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

“The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life.” The life of one who lives by the principles of wisdom has a positive effect on those around him (cf. 3:18). Furthermore, “he that is wise wins souls.” He attracts people to himself and thus imparts to them sound advice (11:30).

Smith, J. E. (1996). The wisdom literature and Psalms (Pr 11:30–31). Joplin, Mo.: College Press Pub. Co.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Socialite

What textual reading did they use?

All I have is what was quoted already

An alternate textual tradition reads חָמָס (khamas) "violent" (reflected in the LXX and Syriac) and refers to taking away lives: "but the one who takes away lives (= kills people) is violent" (cf. NAB, NRSV). The textual variant was caused by orthographic confusion of ס (samek) and כ (kaf), and metathesis of מ (mem) between the 2nd and 3rd consonants. If the parallelism is synonymous, the MT reading fits; if the parallelism is antithetical, the alternate tradition fits. See D. C. Snell, "'Taking Souls' in Pro_11:30," VT 33 (1083): 362-65.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Here are some more translations
winneth souls—(Compare Margin) to do them good as opposed to Pr 6:25; Ez 13:18 (compare Lu 5:10).

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (Pr 11:30). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Wins souls in verse 30 does not mean soul-winning or evangelism. Since “win” is literally “attract or take,” the idea may be that a righteous person attracts others to wisdom. This fits the thought in the first part of the verse of a tree giving life to others by its fruit.

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (Pr 11:30). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

“The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life.” The life of one who lives by the principles of wisdom has a positive effect on those around him (cf. 3:18). Furthermore, “he that is wise wins souls.” He attracts people to himself and thus imparts to them sound advice (11:30).

Smith, J. E. (1996). The wisdom literature and Psalms (Pr 11:30–31). Joplin, Mo.: College Press Pub. Co.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Socialite

But it's such a "generic" proverb. We can follow the road down and say "therefore, wise people do this and that..." but we should do that without saying the Proverb is saying that.

I recall you using the word capture. But it was usually afterward then tied to "capturing fish" later, tied to harvesting, etc... which is not what is intended here.

That was a variant view... not the one I prefer, but another example that this is something general, proverb-like, not a law or foreshadowing of anything else. It's the "blessing" clause in the proverb.

Proverbs begins as a warning to the unrighteous to take the right path. I think that is not so generic,

I never said, ever, that Proverbs 11:30 was about fishing, or harvesting, never ever ever, not once. I said what Jesus said was about pointing souls,people, to salvation. I never ever EVER said proverbs 11 was about pointing people to salvation. ok?

I said what WE do today. What Jesus called the Apostles to do today was to "catch" people, influence them to faith in Christ. I never said or implied that is what Proverbs was about, I said over and over that is NOT what proverbs was about

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Proverbs begins as a warning to the unrighteous to take the right path. I think that is not so generic,

I never said, ever, that Proverbs 11:30 was about fishing, or harvesting, never ever ever, not once. I said what Jesus said was about pointing souls,people, to salvation. I never ever EVER said proverbs 11 was about pointing people to salvation. ok?

I said what WE do today. What Jesus called the Apostles to do today was to "catch" people, influence them to faith in Christ. I never said or implied that is what Proverbs was about, I said over and over that is NOT what proverbs was about

Are you referring to Proverbs 1?

Proverbs is so unique that even the preceeding verses often times are unrelated to the next verse. They are "wise sayings."

What is meant by "righteous" and "unrighteous" here is different than what we may be thinking. I commented on this previously.

Prax, you did say the "terms" were related and cited the verses together.

My bottom line here is that a seminar on Sharing the Gospel ("Soul Winning") should not use Proverbs 11:30 as a proof-text underneath the title to validate sharing the Gospel. At best, it's an indirect reference to the influence of righteous people. It certainly has nothing to do with crusades, rallies, etc... Do you agree?

[rgcraig]

My word - - what's the deal?

Why can't you guys just agree to disagree?

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

My word - - what's the deal?

Why can't you guys just agree to disagree?

Hubris, RG.

But really, I think we have shored up the gulf we both imagined that may be between us on this topic.

Come on, Prax and I keep the post count up on AFF.