there is a thread about the canon in the fellowship hall. I don't want to relitigate the canon in this thread, but like I asked Michlow, what exactly in the NT do you find objectionable?
Oooh! Oooh! Ask me!
I find the emphasis on fear disturbing. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. When Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead (no mercy or grace for them), it spread great fear. And anyone who reads Matthew 7:22-23 without wondering if they themselves might hear the horrible words "I never knew you: depart from me" just isn't paying attention! Those people truly believed that they were saved. Just as you probably do. But they weren't.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I find the emphasis on fear disturbing. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. When Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead (no mercy or grace for them), it spread great fear. And anyone who reads Matthew 7:22-23 without wondering if they themselves might hear the horrible words "I never knew you: depart from me" just isn't paying attention! Those people truly believed that they were saved. Just as you probably do. But they weren't.
Salvation is a serious issue, I think fear and reverence is an important attitude for such a grave topic. Ananias and Sapphira lied to God by lying to the ministry. Being witnesses to such a miraculous move of God as that church was, A & S had no excuse to doubt God, but were held responsible for their knowledge and experience. I think matthew 7 should inspire us to question our beliefs and our standing with God to be sure of our salvation. All of these examples have edification value imo. next?
That reminds me of another reason I don't believe that God talks to people: the messages are so often contradictory! This is most clearly seen when the messages are regarding "truth". These special kinds of messages are sometimes called "revelations". The Bible talks about this phenomenon where we are told that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. But how many different "truths" are there? Does He really tell some people about Oneness and others about the Trinity? My hunch is that "revelations" are nothing more than our own understandings of things being kind of solidified in our minds, perhaps accompanied by one of those profound experiences. And telling people it was a revelation might improve the chances of persuading them we're right!
Any thought that is accompanied by an endorphin rush is supernatural in origin. Or not. It may be that some folks have so few "illuminations" of thought that they are entirely unaccustomed to the experience. Thus, when they do have an original thought (or think that they have) the neuro chemicals of their brain are released with a flood of joy and bliss.
I have a similar experience reading a geology text or discovering something new about living organisms.
Any thought that is accompanied by an endorphin rush is supernatural in origin. Or not. It may be that some folks have so few "illuminations" of thought that they are entirely unaccustomed to the experience. Thus, when they do have an original thought (or think that they have) the neuro chemicals of their brain are released with a flood of joy and bliss.
I have a similar experience reading a geology text or discovering something new about living organisms.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Salvation is a serious issue, I think fear and reverence is an important attitude for such a grave topic. Ananias and Sapphira lied to God by lying to the ministry. Being witnesses to such a miraculous move of God as that church was, A & S had no excuse to doubt God, but were held responsible for their knowledge and experience. I think matthew 7 should inspire us to question our beliefs and our standing with God to be sure of our salvation. All of these examples have edification value imo. next?
Oh, I'm quite familiar with the "answers" to all of my "objections", so I'm not sure it would be worthwhile ticking them off one at a time. But you asked and I answered. (OK, you asked Mich and Brad, so pardon my jumping in! )
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I find the emphasis on fear disturbing. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. When Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead (no mercy or grace for them), it spread great fear. And anyone who reads Matthew 7:22-23 without wondering if they themselves might hear the horrible words "I never knew you: depart from me" just isn't paying attention! Those people truly believed that they were saved. Just as you probably do. But they weren't.
Your point?
God is holy and just. God is good and loving. These attributes all play a part in God's approach to each of us. His holiness demands punishment of sin. His love extends grace to save sinners from punishment. Some folks are saved by fear and others by love. Some folks depart from sin because they fear the punishment of God. Some folks turn to God because they see his love for them in Christ.
I don't see your point.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
God is holy and just. God is good and loving. These attributes all play a part in God's approach to each of us. His holiness demands punishment of sin. His love extends grace to save sinners from punishment. Some folks are saved by fear and others by love. Some folks depart from sin because they fear the punishment of God. Some folks turn to God because they see his love for them in Christ.
I don't see your point.
No problem.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
She's certainly not hopeless. And I don't think it's up to us to judge whether or not God spoke to her, since she's not telling us what God wants US to do.
Thanks AQP, It's nice to be defended
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind
Michlow, I am sorry if I get frustrated with you. I only wish you the best. I don't think your experience with God is useless. I just don't believe your experience with God can be contrary to the bible. My frustration is with your lack of belief in the bible. Please think about this. If the bible isn't true, then God would have to reveal himself to everyone personally. How is humanity to be saved without the scriptures? What other vehicle is there? I know you disagree with things like killings in the OT, but what is there in the NT that you find objectionable? please respond to all of my points.
I DO believe that God reveals himself to everyone personally. It's called the drawing of the Spirit. Doesn't your bible say that no one can come near to God unless the spirit draws him? The same bible says that Jesus would not leave us comfortless, but would send the Spirit, to lead and guide us into all truth.
My objection is not that the Bible exists. My objection is that the Bible itself becomes an object of worship and reverence. Like the pharisees that didn't recognize Jesus because he didn't fit into their Law. Many Christians can't accept that anything is of God that doesn't fit into their "instruction manual".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Murphy
Actually, the bolded is what I expect. Not a compilation of copies of copies of copies of letters translated from language to language, decided by the Council of Nicea... a group of men who didn't even have the Holy Ghost by all accounts (which seems to be the standard for being able to make these types of decisions).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind
there is a thread about the canon in the fellowship hall. I don't want to relitigate the canon in this thread, but like I asked Michlow, what exactly in the NT do you find objectionable?
Paul? Sexism. A lot of it's Cultural, it was a completely different world, with different challenges. I think a lot of it just doesn't translate. Which is not to say that there is nothing to learn from it. There is a lot of wisdom in it. But I don't think we should pattern our lives after the lives of people that lived 2000 years ago. Besides which....if you have a book that tells you exactly how to live you life...what do you need God, or the Spirit for?
I DO believe that God reveals himself to everyone personally. It's called the drawing of the Spirit. Doesn't your bible say that no one can come near to God unless the spirit draws him? The same bible says that Jesus would not leave us comfortless, but would send the Spirit, to lead and guide us into all truth.
My objection is not that the Bible exists. My objection is that the Bible itself becomes an object of worship and reverence. Like the pharisees that didn't recognize Jesus because he didn't fit into their Law. Many Christians can't accept that anything is of God that doesn't fit into their "instruction manual".
Paul? Sexism. A lot of it's Cultural, it was a completely different world, with different challenges. I think a lot of it just doesn't translate. Which is not to say that there is nothing to learn from it. There is a lot of wisdom in it. But I don't think we should pattern our lives after the lives of people that lived 2000 years ago. Besides which....if you have a book that tells you exactly how to live you life...what do you need God, or the Spirit for?
Well Michlow, I agree with you. The spirit of God does have a role in everyone's salvation. The argument you are making about the role of the spirit is coming from the bible. So I agree with you on the spirit's role but I think the bible is equally important. I understand your argument about making doctrine more important than spirit, the bible says that God is seeking worshippers to worship him in spirit and in truth. So to me both spirit and bible are important.
I also agree with you on Paul and sexism but, lots of people see those problems and interpret paul's sexism as cultural and not the instructions of God. Even Paul said some things were his own instruction and other things were God's instruction.
I'm not sure the bible claims to be the exact words of God. The bible says the scriptures are inspired by God. So that leaves some room for human input and human fallibility. So I think I agree with your view on alot but I think I value the scriptures a little more than you. hope we can be friends.
Salvation is a serious issue, I think fear and reverence is an important attitude for such a grave topic. Ananias and Sapphira lied to God by lying to the ministry. Being witnesses to such a miraculous move of God as that church was, A & S had no excuse to doubt God, but were held responsible for their knowledge and experience. I think matthew 7 should inspire us to question our beliefs and our standing with God to be sure of our salvation. All of these examples have edification value imo. next?
OK, one more. Promises. Even though I already know the explanation, I have to say that the promises, since they are so hard to receive (that's part of the explanation -- there are conditions to be met), are virtually pointless. But beyond that, they are an immense source of frustration and despair for the people who try to follow the Bible. Sometimes it leads to depression, even suicide. Sometimes people (usually children) die, when they try to follow James' instructions, rather than go to a doctor.
But it's funny, some of the promises could also be said to be fulfilled no matter what actually happens. You can't really tell if they were or not, so anyone who chooses to can say that they were! E.g., "I will never leave you nor forsake you". You could assume that it's true, and, for you, it might as well be true. Besides, how could you tell if it wasn't? If God either "left" you or "forsook" you, what would be different? Would you feel different? Would bad things happen to you or your loved ones? Would you feel discouraged, now and then?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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