"Divine Flesh" remedy

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Again this is the old argument that full preterists propose. In truth, though, it is not flesh versus spirit, but rather NATURAL versus SPIRITUAL that is the proper context. And Jesus has a SPIRITUAL BODY as much as we shall have one. That is why He is called the Lord FROM HEAVEN in regards to his body, just as we shall receive a house FROM HEAVEN.

Jesus had a body of FLESH AND BONE after His resurrection. And by changing the flesh to immortal flesh, it is explained what God does with our flesh that does not inherit the Kingdom. He changes it to spiritual flesh.

A BODY is a container. And that is the notion given in 2 Cor 5. A HOUSE. And there is no BODY that is not physical that exists in the sense BODY is used here.

See what I mean, or do you believe in a spiritual physical body, just not made of "flesh"?

So I am now identified with the full preterists? Very funny! The term "immortal flesh" is not in the text anywhere. Really stunning that one can read FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the Kingdom and still say flesh can enter the Kingdom.

After his resurrection Paul believed Yeshua Messiah became A QUICKENING SPIRIT.

Spirit is the root of SPIRITUAL. Paul said we will have a SPIRITUAL BODY. One that is HEAVENLY.

You are basing your belief on the fact that Christ said he was not spirit when he appeared to the Apostles. Since not much detail is given to us about that encounter and since Paul is VERY DETAILED in his account I see it this way.

Christ rose from the dead and became a quickening SPIRIT. Then as to fully relate to the disciples when he saw them he changed his spirit appearence back to a physical one. Note the disciples were fearful at first because they thought they saw a spirit.

Yeshua was wanting to relate to them without overly scaring them as they were already afraid at all that had transpired. In the Tanakh various times God or angels (heavenly,spiritual beings) took flesh when encountering men as in the case of Abraham. We do not assume that God was a fleshy man who ate steak and corn bread do we? No he assumed flesh for the situation. Just like Yeshua did in this one.

I mean how clear was Paul making it when he said "the last Adam was made a quickening SPIRIT."

SPIRIT? Yeshua was a SPIRIT BEING?

Why is that surprising to people who believe THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT!

16: Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:16-17

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So I am now identified with the full preterists? Very funny! The term "immortal flesh" is not in the text anywhere. Really stunning that one can read FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the Kingdom and still say flesh can enter the Kingdom.

Consider this. the reason we read there is a change of the living and dead, while not all will die, is because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. This means flesh is changed. Again, Jesus resurrected and said He possessed flesh and bone. Was His flesh not changed. Of course it was. It was then immortal. It had wounds in it that killed it before.

The context of the mention of flesh not inheriting the kingdom is shown to be the reason flesh must change. And since we shall have a body like Christ's in the resurrection, and since He had flesh and bone in His resurrection, and since our resurrection will see mortality put on immortality, then the result can only be immortal flesh.

After his resurrection Paul believed Yeshua Messiah became A QUICKENING SPIRIT.

And He had flesh and bone.

Luke 24:39 KJV Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

He was a quickening Spirit as well.

Spirit is the root of SPIRITUAL. Paul said we will have a SPIRITUAL BODY. One that is HEAVENLY.

Agreed. That does not change anything, though.

You are basing your belief on the fact that Christ said he was not spirit when he appeared to the Apostles. Since not much detail is given to us about that encounter and since Paul is VERY DETAILED in his account I see it this way.

Christ rose from the dead and became a quickening SPIRIT. Then as to fully relate to the disciples when he saw them he changed his spirit appearence back to a physical one. Note the disciples were fearful at first because they thought they saw a spirit.

So He was a spirit, then changed, although the text says nothing about this, solely to not cause them fear, and became flesh and bone, and then say He was not spirit, so they need not fear??? You mean to say that Christ WAS a spirit, scared them, and then reverted to flesh so they would not be scared, and said he was flesh? That sounds very similar to the full preterite argument that is not contained in scripture, either, saying Jesus abandoned his fleshly body after He ascended in Acts 1. Though you are not fp, you use the same tactics of believing things that are vital to your claims although the bible says nothing about such things, as they do.

Sorry, but all these ideas that the bible does not expressly state are not for me.

Yeshua was wanting to relate to them without overly scaring them as they were already afraid at all that had transpired. In the Tanakh various times God or angels (heavenly,spiritual beings) took flesh when encountering men as in the case of Abraham. We do not assume that God was a fleshy man who ate steak and corn bread do we? No he assumed flesh for the situation. Just like Yeshua did in this one.

I have to disagree because He was actually using guile, if you are correct, in actually being spirit, and then turning into flesh just to alleviate their fears. Sounds like a stretch just to retain your present belief.

I mean how clear was Paul making it when he said "the last Adam was made a quickening SPIRIT."

Wouldn't it be much more faithful to scripture to say that Christ was BOTH quickening Spirit and had immortal flesh, than to say He did a change-over in order to appease the frightened disciples, and add all these explanations the bible does not supply?

His human nature, including flesh, was united to His divine nature which was a quickening Spirit.

Others have agreed:

Originally Posted by John Gill

I think it is to be understood of his spiritual body, of his body, not as it was made of the virgin, for that was a natural, or an animal one; it was conceived and bred, and born as animal bodies are; it grew and increased, and was nourished with meat and drink, and sleep and rest; and was subject to infirmities, and to death itself, as our bodies be; but it is to be understood of it as raised from the dead, when it was made a spiritual body, for which reason it is called a "spirit": not that it was changed into a spirit, for it still remained flesh and blood; but because it was no more supported in an animal way; nor subject to those weaknesses that animal bodies are, but lives as spirits, or angels do; and a quickening one, not only because it has life itself, but because by virtue of the saints' union to it, as it subsists in the divine person of the Son of God, their bodies will be quickened at the last day, and made like unto it, spiritual bodies; also because he lives in his body as a spiritual one, they shall live in theirs as spiritual ones: and so the apostle shows, that there is a spiritual, as well as an animal body; that as the first man's body, even before the fall, was an animal or natural one;

SPIRIT? Yeshua was a SPIRIT BEING?

Why is that surprising to people who believe THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT!

It is not surprising to me. And it does not change my view but rather fits it quite well. To be a quickening Spirit is not to diminish the fact that He had a body of flesh as well.

What you claim is my contradiction of thought is actually a complement (not compliment, btw) of thought.

Believe what you will.

[larryboy]

this whole divine flesh is crazy... when it first came up several years ago in the UPC my former pastor stood up against it. he wrote a paper proving this false doctrine. what i dont understand is why is there guys that hang with these people who preach this doctrine... AWCF......

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by larryboy

this whole divine flesh is crazy... when it first came up several years ago in the UPC my former pastor stood up against it. he wrote a paper proving this false doctrine. what i dont understand is why is there guys that hang with these people who preach this doctrine... AWCF......

I do not think it is heaven or hell. But what is the purpose and benefit of believing it, according to its proponents?

[mfblume]

I just corresponded with a divine flesh proponent and came to understand more of their teaching, which allowed me to better expose it as error! lol

Again, their whole argument is that 1 Cor 15:47 shows Adam's body from the earth and Jesus' body from heaven.



We will get the same flesh Jesus Christ now has when we are changed and our bodies are fashioned like unto his glorious body. This will occur in the resurrection that we have not yet experienced. And since His body was changed into the same sort of body ours will be changed, and since we read we shall have a body "from heaven", that means his flesh was from the earth before the cross and was changed into a body "from heaven" in the tomb in His resurrection. This is the absolute plain reading of 2 Cor 15 and 1 Cor 15:47. Jesus was not born with flesh from heaven. That would defy everything 1 Cor 15 is saying.

Paul said that "every man" who will resurrect, due to the need for resurrection that came because of Adam's bringing of death, includes Jesus the firstfruits, and the rest of those will be raised at His coming. This shows us that the same experience Jesus had in His resurrection will be our experience when our turn comes. The only difference is TIME when it occurs. First, Jesus the firstfruits, THEN AFTERWARD those that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 KJV (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And since the whole context shows Christ rising FIRST and then our resurrection to yet occur, when we read this, it includes Jesus:

1 Corinthians 15:35 KJV (35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Jesus Christ had a natural body that was changed and raised into a spiritual body in His resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV (45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus was MADE a quickening Spirit at His resurrection! He could give no life to anyone until the cross occurred. This prohibits us from saying He quickened men before the resurrection, which in turn prohibits us from saying he was a quickening Spirit before His resurrection. Without the cross he was only a door, with no blood on it to allow us to enter and be free from the death angel.

His present flesh is from heaven, yes. But that is because the flesh was CHANGED in the tomb. How do I know? Because our flesh shall be changed just as His was:

Philippians 3:21 KJV Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And when our flesh is changed it will become a BODY FROM HEAVEN.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJV (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

This did not happen when we were baptized into His death. Paul was already baptized into His death when he wrote 2 Cor 5, and he put 2 Cor 5's fulfillment in his future, and it was not AD70 either. It has yet to come.

So the common denominator in His resurrection and our own is found to be CHANGE of the body of dust into a body from heaven at the resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
.

As we continue reading we see that our flesh and blood body from dust SHALL CHANGE, just as His did.

1 Corinthians 15:50-51 KJV (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

The change is required due to the reason that flesh cannot enter the Kingdom. And how will we change? Phil 3:21 says we will change in the same manner Jesus' flesh changed. It was mortal and of the dust like ours is. But it changed, and was fashioned to be immortal and from Heaven instead. So likewise will our flesh change. That is the entire context to 1 Cor 15.

When it says there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body, it is showing that the body we now have is natural and will become spiritual. Not that it is physical and then will become not physical. It is natural, and will become spiritual. And Jesus Christ cannot die now, since his flesh is immortal as ours shall be in the resurrection.

Romans 6:9 KJV Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Death HAD DOMINION over Him before the cross. But death hath NO MORE dominion over Him now. That is because spiritual flesh is immortal and natural flesh is mortal. Jesus DID NOT have spiritual flesh before the cross, or else He would not have been able to die. 1 Cor 15 says our bodies are changed to spiritual bodies in the resurrection, and that is when they are immortal. So the spiritual body is immortal, which Jesus did not have before the cross. No other passage in the bible says anything different about this than 1 Cor 15. And 1 Cor 15 says that the spiritual body is immortal, disallowing us to believe Christ's body before the cross was spiritual. You do err not knowing the context of 1 Cor 15.

Please read the context of this passage closely.:

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 KJV (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The above says that resurrection must come by man. And then it includes Christ's resurrection in the truth that ALL MEN must resurrect, by saying EVERY MAN in verse 23. Who does EVERY MAN include? Christ the firstfruits and then the rest of everyone man who will resurrect (since some will not-- the sinners) at His coming. Since Christ is firstfruits, that means He already experienced the change from a natural body to a spiritual one, and we shall experience the same. Otherwise words have lost all meaning in the passage I quoted.

Colossians 1:18 KJV And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Revelation 1:5 KJV And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

He is firstborn FROM THE DEAD. Unless we understand Jacob's story of the birthright, we will not understand why he is firstborn ONLY FROM THE DEAD. Jacob was not actually firstborn, but he gained that title due to Esau's forfeiture of it, as Adam lost his title and Christ gained it. Jesus was only MARY'S FIRSTBORN in the incarnation, but not firstborn for anyone else until His resurrection, when He rose form the dead with spiritual flesh.

Matthew 1:25 KJV And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

But being firstborn FROM THE DEAD makes Him a new ADAM for mankind! Without His resurrection, there is no salvation, and without his salvation there is no second and last Adam. So divine flesh wreaks havoc on salvation's very origin, the resurrection of Jesus.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not think it is heaven or hell. But what is the purpose and benefit of believing it, according to its proponents?

It may not directly affect salvation, but since it is a false teachnig it needs to be addressed. False doctrines are like leaven Jesus said.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It may not directly affect salvation, but since it is a false teachnig it needs to be addressed. False doctrines are like leaven Jesus said.

I agree. When this brother told me he felt it was salvational, I told him that concerns me more, since he implied I was not saved.

Unbelievable.

[Scott Hutchinson]

If the body Of Jesus was divine how could it have died or gave up the ghost,because you can't kill divinity ?
You can kill humanity but not divinity.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

If the body Of Jesus was divine how could it have died or gave up the ghost,because you can't kill divinity ?
You can kill humanity but not divinity.

Amen and amen.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

If the body Of Jesus was divine how could it have died or gave up the ghost,because you can't kill divinity ?
You can kill humanity but not divinity.

No one that I know of from the divine flesh group says his flesh was deity, just his flesh was of divine origin. Not that he wasn't a man that could die.