Lot's Revelation of Grace - Page 10

EA · #91 10-31-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

Lot chose to live in a wicked place.
Lot's wife didn't want to leave it.
Lot's daughters were influenced by their environment.
Lot's wife was lost because the escape that grace provided was not rewarded with obedience on her part.
Lot got drunk.
Lot slept with both of his daughters.
Lot impregnated both of his daughters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

"Lot chose to live in a wicked place" If he hadn't then Abraham would have. There is no indication that Lot was wrong for living there.

He chose the well-watered plain. It was a large place. He landed in the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Odd for a herdsman to be living in an urban environment, no? In fact, I challenge you to find any mention of Lot as a herdsman after he leaves Abram. He lost his entire identity because of affection direction.

"Lot's wife..." She looked back, but we don't know why.

Doesn't matter why. She diosobeyed. Her death could have been averted if lot would have left the cities earlier, or chosen a different path altogether.
"Lots daughters..." maybe or maybe not pure conjecture.

"Lot got drunk" actually his daughters orchestrated that, so did Noah but I don't see anyone jumping on that.

So Lot was forced to get drunk? Get real!

"Lot slept with both of his daughters" As sick as that sounds to us apparently Cain and Seth married their sisters, sounds kinda sick too and up to that point it had not been prohibited. There was a lot that happened in the OT that I wonder how much of it God approved of and how much of it he simply allowed. I don't have an answer for that. I can't comprehend allowing your mistress to be gang raped, or killing children in war, or a lot of other things including sleeping with your daughters.

Wow, you are way off the reservation, Bro. God never condoned incest, ever. Any man in an incestuous relationship is no NOT righteous.

I'm floored.

Truly.

Baron1710 · #92 10-31-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrford

Now it is about my attitude? Sorry, I was referring to your beliefs not your attitude. It seems you are bent on making this argumentative.

Is it so hard to believe that Lot was at one point righteous and then fell from righteousness? If you can't see that then your view is Calvinistic. Has nothing to do with attitude.

Like I said, I have never had a thread more misinterpreted. Andyes, Lot received mercy and called it grace. Of course, for the sake of your argument I don't expect you to read the passsage that way.

Yes it is hard to believe your position. We don't speak of Someone being righteous after their life was complete if in fact they were not.

That seems to be a completely ludicrous position to me, beyond the realm of common sense.

So the hero's of faith they were probably all lost too since they sinned, but it was a good example while they were doing it all right.

EA · #93 10-31-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

Making poor decisions does not make us unrighteous, but anyone can see that poor choices can affect future behaviors. Lot DID eventually enter into disobedience because of his poor decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrford

And I would go so far as to say he became unrighteous. Would you agree?

Absolutely.

However, I will say that I believe one can commit unrighteous acts and still be declared righteous by God (justification).

Baron1710 · #94 10-31-2009, 08:42 PM

EA,

Was Seth incestuous?

EA · #95 10-31-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Again Lot was dead. He no longer could commit any acts. You don't scream incest when it was Seth.

Oh here we go. Your not Apostolic...typical. If your attitude defines what is Apostolic I will take it as a compliment.

Baron, you are saying something the Bible does not say. There is no record that Seth married his sister.

EA · #96 10-31-2009, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

EA,

Was Seth incestuous?

I do not know, and neither do you. The Bible does not say anything about his wife, or even where she came from.

rrford · #97 10-31-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Yes it is hard to believe your position. We don't speak of Someone being righteous after their life was complete if in fact they were not.

That seems to be a completely ludicrous position to me, beyond the realm of common sense.

So the hero's of faith they were probably all lost too since they sinned, but it was a good example while they were doing it all right.

It seems I am talking to a wall. Sorry. Is it so difficulat to understand that Peter may not have been speaking of the end of Lot's days but rather the events of his entering into Sodom? Are you saying that if there is ever a singular verse that attests to one "righteousness" or "rightness" then nothing can take that away?

Judas was okay? Korah was okay?

Baron1710 · #98 10-31-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I do not know, and neither do you. The Bible does not say anything about his wife, or even where she came from.

Abraham married his sister, and any way you slice it Seth married a close relative.

mizpeh · #99 10-31-2009, 08:45 PM

Baron, have you never read Ezekiel 18?

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

RevDWW · #**100** 10-31-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Again Lot was dead. He no longer could commit any acts. You don't scream incest when it was Seth.

Oh here we go. Your not Apostolic...typical. If your attitude defines what is Apostolic I will take it as a compliment.

It appears as thought Peter is talking about Lot while he lived in the Sodom, being uncorrupted by it and rescued because he was just. It doesn't seem to take into account what followed after he left Sodom.

As to the charge of incest, it sounds more like the daughters abused the dad and he didn't knowingly participate.......

Gen 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

Gen 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

So perhaps his righteousness was not sullied because of their unbelief?