Real Life Ghost Story:

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

In casting out many spirits I realize they have one thing in common...they all lie.
You cannot believe any thing they tell you in deliverance. If its not Bible leave it alone.

Can you help me by showing where anything I said wasn't biblical? I know it's not a traditional interpretation.

I read a book by KH when he was GS of the UPCI titled, The Anointed Ones. He believed unclean spirits to be the disembodied spirits of those who lived in a Pre-Adamite earth prior to the destruction described in Genesis 1:2 (Gap-Theory). This book was much help to me when I was studying these things. I felt confirmation in the Holy Ghost that he was right, these were disembodied spirits. However, the language of Genesis was stressed to allow for the Gap-Theory. The Holy Ghost because to lead me to find another place in Scripture where evil spirits were indeed released on a massive scale, not only that, the spirits were of demonic origin. This place in Scripture is Genesis 6. I began to study Josephus and other ancient commentators regarding this passage. The interpretation from antiquity supports the notion of a very demonic series of events surrounding the time just before the great Flood.

While the ancient interpretation of Genesis 6 regarding the Bene ha Elohim isn't popular in our highly rationalistic Western Society... it was the position from antiquity.

Jesus explained a lot about demon possession too. If you review his teachings you'll find that spirits "thirst", but it's not a physical thirst...they have unquenched desire. And after a spirit has roamed the dry places seeking rest (relief) for it's thirst, if it should return to a house finding it swept and clean, it will bring in seven additional spirits and the state of the man is worse than at the beginning. The Holy Ghost opened my eyes to what these things "thirst" for. Again, it has to do with their embodiment on earth. They were VERY evil beings. Now, without bodies unclean spirits seek to quench their thirst for sin by inhabiting a host. Hence... possession.

[Trouvere]

Spirits cannot physically copulate with women. It is not humanly possible. Jewish fables are not biblical. If you listen to antiquity then you also have to believe the story of Lillith. Satan has never created anything but chaos and confusion. He is not God, Jesus is.
The Jews also hang to the Apocrypha.
When you translate those words from the Hebrew you find that they don't match that theology. The sons of God were and always will be the lineage of Seth.
BTW don't be so touchy. Its okay Brother to differ in opinion. I do it all the time.lol.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Spirits cannot physically copulate with women. It is not humanly possible. Jewish fables are not biblical. If you listen to antiquity then you also have to believe the story of Lillith. Satan has never created anything but chaos and confusion. He is not God, Jesus is.
The Jews also hang to the Apocrypha.
When you translate those words from the Hebrew you find that they don't match that theology. The sons of God were and always will be the lineage of Seth.
BTW don't be so touchy. Its okay Brother to differ in opinion. I do it all the time.lol.

Hey, I don't mean to be touchy, just sharing my thoughts. I love you man! lol You're alright in my book even if we don't agree.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Spirits cannot physically copulate with women. It is not humanly possible. Jewish fables are not biblical. If you listen to antiquity then you also have to believe the story of Lillith. Satan has never created anything but chaos and confusion. He is not God, Jesus is.
The Jews also hang to the Apocrypha.
When you translate those words from the Hebrew you find that they don't match that theology. The sons of God were and always will be the lineage of Seth.
BTW don't be so touchy. Its okay Brother to differ in opinion. I do it all the time.lol.

Lol

What you’re saying is indeed the traditional take on things. However, after much study I’ve come to a different conclusion. You’re right, Jewish fables aren’t biblical and should be taken as merely fables. I’ll try to address some of your post point by point. I’m not being rude, just discussing this with you bro. Love you like a bro in Christ.

Spirits cannot physically copulate with women. It is not humanly possible.

I used to believe the same thing. However, after studying the Bible I discovered that angels can and do indeed manifest them selves physically. Joseph wrested an “angel of the LORD” (theophany? Maybe). But the point is this is the angelic theophany of Jehovah God. And he indeed materialized and wrestled. You’ll notice that God was accompanied by two Holy Angels when visiting Abraham. Jehovah and these two angels sat down and ate with Abraham. The Seraphim and Cherubim are often referred to as “beasts” in prophetic writings, and indeed they have a very fearsome and animalistic side to their nature. They are “lions” for advancing God’s purposes in the earth. Please consider something about these Heavenly “beasts”. We know from the teachings of Jesus that angels do not marry… but Jesus doesn’t elaborate on what they are capable of or not. If an angel takes a physical form… it would appear that said physical form can perform any number of physical actions and biological processes such as wrestling and eating. Who’s to say that when in physical form they can’t do more than wrestle and eat? Implication would demand that there is the possibility that an angel in physical form can copulate. Back to “beasts”… earthly beasts do not marry. And there are very intelligent animals on earth. The African Grey parrot can have the vocabulary and communication ability of a 5 year old child. Monkeys can carry on simple conversation using sign language. Dolphins are extremely intelligent. All are “beasts” all don’t marry… but all are capable of copulation. If an angel is “beastial” in its spiritual nature and can materialize, though being thousands of years old and being supremely intelligent, I find it difficult to discount that copulation is possible. In fact….the New Testament implicates evil angels in carrying on lascivious and lustful activities….

Jude
{1:6} And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {1:7} Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

In Jude we read about a group of angels who “kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation”. We also read that this specific group of angels were “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”. These are obviously not Satan and his angels who we daily contend with today. We know this because Satan and his angels are not bound by chains in darkness as of yet. If the fallen angels are all bound…who are we fighting in the spiritual? So this is specifically describing a specific class of angels who “left their first estate” and obviously sinned a sin so grievous God bound them before the day of judgment. Who are these angels? What did they do? If we interpret Genesis 6 properly, I believe we plainly see what they did. They sought out “strange flesh” by coming to earth in material form and took daughters of men (mankind) to themselves. This would explain why they are described in connection with the cities of the plains (Sodom and Gomorrah). We also read that Sodom and Gomorrah, with the cities about them sinned “in like manner” as these angelic beings. Why did they do? The gave themselves over to lasciviousness.

We also read about them in 2 Peter,

II Peter 2:4
{2:4} For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Notice again, these angels “sinned” and were cast down to Hell (Tartarus) being delivered into chains of darkness, reserved unto the judgment.

So, if these texts aren’t describing the “sons of God” (Bene ha Elohim) of Genesis 6… who are they describing? Obviously Peter and Jude’s readers were well aware of this because no extensive explanation was necessary. Were Peter and Jude caught up in “Jewish fables” or were they perhaps aware of a truth about these fallen angels that is so terrible that it bewilders our modern minds? Please read Genesis 6 with these NT verses in mind…

Genesis 6:1-4
{6:1} And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, {6:2} That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. {6:3} And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. {6:4} There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

We see “sons of God” taking daughters of men, all of which they chose. We see that the progeny from these unions produced “giants” (Hb. Nephilim). If this is simply a godly line of mankind mingling with an ungodly line of mankind this leaves us with several questions:

If this is just a godly line of mankind mingling with an ungodly line of mankind; why don’t we see “giants” (Hb. Nephilim) born in families that are unequally yoked today?

If this doesn’t depict a vile sin committed by fallen angels; who and what was being referred to in II Peter and Jude?

If II Peter and Jude were describing Satan and the general fall of his angels; who do we wrestle with seeing that II Peter and Jude proclaims that they are bound in Hell (Tartarus) under chains of darkness?

If one argues that the “sons of God” were the line of Seth… they can’t honestly answer these questions. In fact, all they can argue is that we don’t know what angels II Peter and Jude are talking about nor even what sin they committed. This may sound acceptable… but then it puts Peter and Jude into question. Did Peter and Jude believe in Jewish fables and therefore misguided? What validates the truth they propose regarding this specific group of angels? Why do they speak about it as though it was an understood biblical truth? The argument that the “sons of God” were human beings throws Peter and Jude under the bus.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

Jewish fables are not biblical. If you listen to antiquity then you also have to believe the story of Lillith. Satan has never created anything but chaos and confusion. He is not God, Jesus is.

True. But Jewish fables aren’t anywhere in Scripture. For example, we see no hint of Lilith. But… this interpretation of the story of Genesis 6 was obviously strong enough and widely believed enough in the first century that a man of Josephus’ caliber included it in his, Antiquities of the Jews.

When you translate those words from the Hebrew you find that they don't match that theology. The sons of God were and always will be the lineage of Seth.

I disagree. We read….

Job 1:6
{1:6} Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {1:7} And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and
said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking
up and down in it.

Here, the sons of God are clearly the angelic hosts. In this passage the angels present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. So we clearly see that the term “sons of God” (Hb. Bene ha Elohim) can indeed refer to angelic beings.

In addition we read…

Job 38:1-7
{38:1} Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, {38:2} Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? {38:3} Gird up now
thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. {38:4} Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. {38:5} Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? {38:6} Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; {38:7} When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In the above text the LORD reproves Job by reminding him that he wasn’t present when God created the earth and the “sons of God” shouted for joy. Here too, the term “sons of God” (Hb. Bene ha Elohim) refer to the angelic hosts in their worship and praise of Jehovah God at beholding His creation which was very good.

Now, most who postulate that he “sons of God” were righteous men (namely the line of Seth) take a couple verses from the New Testament to state such…

John 1:11-13
{1:11} He came unto his own, and his own received him not. {1:12} But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: {1:13} Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8:14
{8:14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

And in my Bible search I found a series of other references.

However, here’s the issue. The New Testament was written in Greek not Hebrew. The Hebrew “Bene ha Elohim” is used throughout the Hebrew texts of the Old Testament and extra biblical writings to denote angelic beings. The Greek transliteration from the New Testament into Hebrew wouldn’t be appropriate if translated “Bene ha Elohim”, else it would seem to be claiming angelic origin of the line of Seth. When Paul states that we are the “sons of God” Paul is speaking ontologically or relationally regarding our salvation and place before God in Christ. Paul’s thought processes aren’t even connected to the “Bene ha Elohim” of the OT.

In addition, per Paul’s definition, only those led by the Spirit can lay claim of being called the “sons of God”. Therefore we have to ask, if the line of Seth intermingled with the unrighteous, freely taking wives all of which they desired, who can they be called “sons of God”? Obviously in doing so they wouldn’t be being led of the Spirit.

So, while all of this is very brief and very to the point, my studies have resulted in my conviction that the “sons of God” (Bene ha Elohim) of Genesis 6 were indeed a class of fallen angel that violated the sacred lines between man and angel in which marriage is forbidden. And as a result their offspring were indeed grotesque giants whose spirits are still with us as “unclean spirits” while these angels in particular were bound by chains of darkness until the Day of Judgment.

Thoughts?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

For example, we know that a man is appointed once to die and then the judgment.... but what happens between death and that person's judgment is largely a mystery to most Christians.

Just as a thought. That scripture is not actually speaking of what happens to us when we die and are then judged. It is speaking of the reason Christ died as us. Because men must die and be judged, Jesus experienced BOTH for us. So, it really does leave us with unanswered questions about death. However, I do not believe human spirits roam the world after death, personally.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just as a thought. That scripture is not actually speaking of what happens to us when we die and are then judged. It is speaking of the reason Christ died as us. Because men must die and be judged, Jesus experienced BOTH for us. So, it really does leave us with unanswered questions about death. However, I do not believe human spirits roam the world after death, personally.

Interesting take on it Bro. Blume.

I don't believe that spirits roam as a rule, I'm just open to the possibility. It would seem that when the witch of Endor conjured Samuel "gods" or spirits were found rising out of the ground with his spirit. From that I conclude that it's possible that when operating in the realm of the occult or spiritual we open the doors for more than what we're asking for. It becomes contestable as to what these "gods" or spirits were, but if Samuel was raised from a place where the spirits of the dead rest... it's possible that these were spirits of the dead entering our world. I'd like to imagine that the angels would round them up again, but perhaps some could be left to roam until returned or until the Judgment. This might also explain why this is such a serious offense in the eyes of Jehovah God. Opening a doorway into the realm of the dead could be the equivalence of aiding a spiritual "jail break".

[Trouvere]

The difference I see Aquilla is that Samuel was in the grave. He was awaiting the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Spiritual jail break occurred when those in Abrahams Bosom were resurrected and taken to heaven. There were those who were in Hades as
well. Remember the scripture that talks about dead folks resurrected who were seen
in the city. Those who died and were faithful waited for the day of the Lord.
Just some thoughts. I am sure Brother Blume could explain this to you in more detail
than I can.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

The difference I see Aquilla is that Samuel was in the grave. He was awaiting the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Spiritual jail break occurred when those in Abrahams Bosom were resurrected and taken to heaven. There were those who were in Hades as
well. Remember the scripture that talks about dead folks resurrected who were seen
in the city. Those who died and were faithful waited for the day of the Lord.
Just some thoughts. I am sure Brother Blume could explain this to you in more detail
than I can.

Oh, I agree that Samuel was waiting in the grave (Hades). However, it appears that Hades was composed of two realms… the Bosom of Abraham and Tartarus. Certainly Samuel waited in the Bosom of Abraham for the resurrection that would come upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, it would appear that when Samuel was contacted additional spirits were released when the door was open (one reason why we admonish kids not to dabble in this kind of thing). Were these spirits of the righteous dead coming forth into our world? Were these demons? Were they evil spirits who somehow were in transit to Tartarus or Paradise and found themselves passing through a doorway that afforded them opportunity to re-enter our world? The are a number of questions on this. We know what spiritualists who specialize in conjuring the dead like this teach. At any rate, the Law of God strongly forbids this practice and sentences the practitioner to death. Certainly this was a grave sin (no pun intended) in the eyes of God. Man’s spiritual authority over the earthly plane also plays a part. When a human being uses that spiritual authority in unlawful ways by conjuring the dead, in a sense one could be providing an opportunity for escape that God doesn’t intend.

[Trouvere]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Oh, I agree that Samuel was waiting in the grave (Hades). However, it appears that Hades was composed of two realms… the Bosom of Abraham and Tartarus. Certainly Samuel waited in the Bosom of Abraham for the resurrection that would come upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, it would appear that when Samuel was contacted additional spirits were released when the door was open (one reason why we admonish kids not to dabble in this kind of thing). Were these spirits of the righteous dead coming forth into our world? Were these demons? Were they evil spirits who somehow were in transit to Tartarus or Paradise and found themselves passing through a doorway that afforded them opportunity to re-enter our world? The are a number of questions on this. We know what spiritualists who specialize in conjuring the dead like this teach. At any rate, the Law of God strongly forbids this practice and sentences the practitioner to death. Certainly this was a grave sin (no pun intended) in the eyes of God. Man’s spiritual authority over the earthly plane also plays a part. When a human being uses that spiritual authority in unlawful ways by conjuring the dead, in a sense one could be providing an opportunity for escape that God doesn’t intend.

The difference is Jesus. Samuel was real. He was not a devil. There are none in Abraham's bosom right now. I don't see where evil spirits were ever worried about except cast out such as the young woman with the spirit of divination or the demoniac that legion was cast out of. We can become
pawns of satan when we play by his rules. The Bible is our authority. I don't lean to or allow for any thing but Biblical text when dealing with demons.
If we had examples of the Apostles or early disciples leading lost souls into the light then we would have a proof text but we do not. So in that instance
we as well need to be cautioned that we not move from the Biblical position to the position of spiritualist or sorcery. That would make the enemy very happy.