The probelm with folks going to different churches is that who is responible for them.It's not fair to Pastors because they are unsure if they are responsible for church hoppers.When probelms arise and counseling needs to be done, are Pastors responsible to counsel church hoppers.
Also people that don't settle in a home church are held accountable to whom?
And where does their financial support go?
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
OSP, I am sure that a person can do what you have proposed. i dont think one has to attend one single church and maintain a relationship with God.
as I pointed out, evangelists and their families do this.
But we are called to be more than saints. Jesus compared the christian to a vine or a tree. He pointed out more than once we are to bare friut.
Now It may be possible to be fruitful and move weekly from church to church, but my paradigm has great difficulty in seeing how one goes about being fruitfull while at the same time not being commited to a church. (by church I mean any group of believers from big churches to a house church structure)
Now, part of the problem my very well be my paradigm. but clearly since you are the one proposing such a divergence of thought, it is incumbent on you to explain how one goes about being an effective, fruitfull saint, while doing what you propose....
in light of the fact that your actions will be seen as shiftless, and ungrounded.
OK, fair enough. Here is my naive vision...
One gets saved.
One sits under elders for a number of years until you are a mature Christian. While you are sitting under those elders (5 fold ministry) you are taught your giftings and your ministry within the church.
Then you are given leave to go and minister in other places/assemblies where you are needed. You could go to a growing assembly, start your own, visit others depending where God leads.
I see in the original assembly as a nucleus of elders, babes and those still learning so you don't see people sitting on a pew for 40 years but going out and sowing into other places. You could grow into one of the elders in your original assembly or be used in another capacity in others.
Every saint has a ministry and it may not be exclusively needed in your local assembly. Sometimes just being there and worshipping with a group of people who need encouragement is a ministry. For example, a small assembly who has only a dozen people when you come from one that has 200 or more.
My theory is that the water is not moving is going to grow stagnant. We have little pools of swamp water where we should have large rivers flowing around to give encouragement and life to others.
It seems a little fearful to me to hold back the flow if we don't have any real good reasons not to.
OK, you can laugh now...
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
The opening quote is what has prompted my reply... "Random attendance at any church keeps us from really becoming a part of a spiritual family. In essence we can become spiritual nomads, no home, no sense of belonging. People need the body of Christ for protection.”
This idea that a local assembly becomes a SPIRITUAL FAMILY is loaded with subtil traps that can muddle the creative process God has purposed for his own children and his own family.
Families are most often understood as fathers with mothers who bring forth offspring.
If a local congregation is a family, the peril is the "thought trap". If there becomes an implied founding/senior member-minister as the father and the older saints as mother, you have just jumbled-up a bunch of godly ordained offices and operations.
Children have real parents.
Wives have real husbands.
The brethren have a father in heaven.
Surrogates in the presence of the real introduce a double-mindedness.
A double-mindedness gives place for instability.
There is one father.
There is one family.
There is one name.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
I'm not sure what the pastor meant by protection. The body, the whole body, not just a group of saints in a certain place are to encourage and minister to one another. That could mean your next door neighbour if they are in the body not just those you see on Sundays.
He obviously equates not showing up for assembly on Sunday at a certain place and time random attendance even if you were another place meeting with others in the body. It's sounds like the "unfatihful" term being applied here again.
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
The probelm with folks going to different churches is that who is responible for them.It's not fair to Pastors because they are unsure if they are responsible for church hoppers.When probelms arise and counseling needs to be done, are Pastors responsible to counsel church hoppers.
Also people that don't settle in a home church are held accountable to whom?
And where does their financial support go?
This is like the "what came first the chicken or the egg" question.
There are always arguments against an idea that people put forward based on how things function where they are based rather than how things may function in another paradigm.
AS it stands now the pastors that belong to certain denominations learn they are responsible for those who attend their assembly regularily and the saints are taught to tithe to those pastors. Now if the paradigm of the way the organization works were different then those ideas would change. For example, if the organization practised multiple eldership leadership. The pastors (elders) may be taught they are ALL responsible for the saints as God leads and the saint is taught to tithe to the group of elders or an administrative elder and than the tithes are distributed as needed.
So these "problems" are situational rather than foundational.
Why would a saints accountability be different?
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
One sits under elders for a number of years until you are a mature Christian. While you are sitting under those elders (5 fold ministry) you are taught your giftings and your ministry within the church.
Then you are given leave to go and minister in other places/assemblies where you are needed. You could go to a growing assembly, start your own, visit others depending where God leads.
I see in the original assembly as a nucleus of elders, babes and those still learning so you don't see people sitting on a pew for 40 years but going out and sowing into other places. You could grow into one of the elders in your original assembly or be used in another capacity in others.
Every saint has a ministry and it may not be exclusively needed in your local assembly. Sometimes just being there and worshipping with a group of people who need encouragement is a ministry. For example, a small assembly who has only a dozen people when you come from one that has 200 or more.
My theory is that the water is not moving is going to grow stagnant. We have little pools of swamp water where we should have large rivers flowing around to give encouragement and life to others.
It seems a little fearful to me to hold back the flow if we don't have any real good reasons not to.
OK, you can laugh now...
well, now that is vastly different than your opening statement! I would not suggest that you are completley off base as it appears to be a well thought out plan.
The problem I see, is that instead of helping to create this, you are asking others who have a well established methodology to change.
I dont think it is fare to suggest that those who have worked lifetimes to create something to shift their method.
Having said that, if you are willing to create an assymbly that does what you propose, there is clearly some merit to it.
I one reservation is that this looks like you are trying to put everyone in the five fold ministry? can you clarify this?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
This is like the "what came first the chicken or the egg" question.
There are always arguments against an idea that people put forward based on how things function where they are based rather than how things may function in another paradigm.
AS it stands now the pastors that belong to certain denominations learn they are responsible for those who attend their assembly regularily and the saints are taught to tithe to those pastors. Now if the paradigm of the way the organization works were different then those ideas would change. For example, if the organization practised multiple eldership leadership. The pastors (elders) may be taught they are ALL responsible for the saints as God leads and the saint is taught to tithe to the group of elders or an administrative elder and than the tithes are distributed as needed.
So these "problems" are situational rather than foundational.
Why would a saints accountability be different?
Well I'm not trying sound judgemental.But I do think everybody needs a home church.
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
well, now that is vastly different than your opening statement! I would not suggest that you are completley off base as it appears to be a well thought out plan.
The problem I see, is that instead of helping to create this, you are asking others who have a well established methodology to change.
I dont think it is fare to suggest that those who have worked lifetimes to create something to shift their method.
Having said that, if you are willing to create an assymbly that does what you propose, there is clearly some merit to it.
I one reservation is that this looks like you are trying to put everyone in the five fold ministry? can you clarify this?
No. The 5-fold ministry is for the perfection of the saints. But all saints have a ministry and gifts to share within the body (not exclusively to a certain group within the body, necessarily)
Here it is in a nutshell:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ,) Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: Eph 4:16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
Well I'm not trying sound judgemental.But I do think everybody needs a home church.
I know you're not trying to sound judgemental... never entered my mind.
I think you need good relationships with Christ, saints, elders. Whether or not that translates into a "home" church where you never leave until you die (unless you or they move) is another question.
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
No. The 5-fold ministry is for the perfection of the saints. But all saints have a ministry and gifts to share within the body (not exclusively to a certain group within the body, necessarily)
Here it is in a nutshell:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ,) Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: Eph 4:16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
so are you willing to step up and create this new methodology you speak of or are you asking others to change their approach?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
It's ALL good!!!
Linear Mode
