CeCe Winans under fire for singing at Gay church

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's the key...God wil judge us for our "actions". Remember God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and gave man a...choice. That word places responsibility on the individual as opposed to the whole of a society.

I don't think one can draw an absolute parallel between the Holocaust and abortion in the United States. The Holocaust was the wholesale murder of an entire people as a policy. Those who would hide Jews were put to death with them. If the American government force women to abort under penalty of death you'd have a case.

The SCOTUS deliberated over the complexity of the issue hearing from nearly every angle. In this situation you have two lives intertwined in a way unlike any other. The court felt that the rights, choice, and health of the mother have the most weight under the law. That preventing her from aborting would essentially be government seizure of her body until delivery. Given the legal and moral complexity of the issue the SCOTUS decided that the government is incapable of addressing the issue adequately, therefore they decided to take a hands off approach and place the choice entirely in the woman's hands. In Roe they set standards by which individual states can regulate the provision of abortion based on trimester. Main point was that government is incapable of adequately addressing the issue and women were individual responsible for their own choice.

That decision places the onus on the individual woman who chooses to have an abortion. She alone is responsible for her choice and she alone will be judged by God accordingly. While abortion is still a grave sin, the taking of a life, it isn't anywhere near equal to the Holocaust.

Interestingly however China does force women to abort under penalty as policy. China is the largest exporter of goods into the United States. The largest retailer in the United States is Walmart. The vast majority of goods sold by Walmart are made in China, benefitting both nation's economy greatly. Yet free market leaders in the US who claim to be pro-life hail Walmart as a sterling example of American success. Few Christians who are pro-life see an issue with shopping at Walmart, thereby fueling the economy and adding to the wealth of China, a nation that forces women to have abortions.

Every dollar spent in Walmart can be likened unto aiding a nation that performs genocide through forced abortion as a national policy. That my dear friend is on the level of sympathizing and even aiding the Germans during the Holocaust.

Walmart
Low Morals, Low Prices

You never dealt with the arbitrariness of your position. You used the term "universal principle". How is it universal in scope? While I agree that a government has to be supported by those governed I don't believe that it's authority or legitimacy comes from the people.

Also, Scripture indicates that a man can be put to death for the killing of an unborn child or a child that is born prematurely due to his actions. The Supreme court is incorrect.

It's does bother me that you think that the killing of a pre-born human is less significant than the killing of a post-born human.

BTW, do you have anything from China in your possession?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

You never dealt with the arbitrariness of your position. You used the term "universal principle". How is it universal in scope? While I agree that a government has to be supported by those governed I don't believe that it's authority or legitimacy comes from the people.

Also, Scripture indicates that a man can be put to death for the killing of an unborn child or a child that is born prematurely due to his actions. The Supreme court is incorrect.

My point with it being a unversal principle is that no matter how righteous or wicked a given government is...it derives it's just powers from the people who allow it to rule.

The text reads...

Exodus 21:22-24
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

This has to do with men injuring a pregnant woman. In all honesty says nothing about an individual woman choosing to abort. American Law states the same. Though our government allows a woman to choose, if she is injured as the result of another's negligence, they can be charged for crimes up to murder if she or her child suffers extensive physical harm or death. We can only speak to that which the text addresses.

It's does bother me that you think that the killing of a pre-born human is less significant than the killing of a post-born human.

I never said that killing a pre-born human is less significant than the killing of a post-born human bro. I explained that legal abortion by individual choice isn't a forced policy like the Holocaust was therefore it's not on the same level and comparisons are inaccurate.

BTW, do you have anything from China in your possession?

Yes. But that wasn't my point. My point was that there is more than one way to be implicated in the abortion issue and I was drawing a comparison between forced abortion and the forced Holocaust to show where your ealier comparison might hold more weight.

Is this the same woman that sang on tour with Benny Hinn? If so then why are we surprised about her planning to sing at a gay affirming church?

Originally Posted by Diamond Jim

Then ask her why she is singing at a church that affirms this lifestyle.

[Aquila]

Dave...instead of getting side tracked in a thread over one thing said...PM me or start a new thread. Don't hijack the thread dude. lol

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If one can shop in a place that fuels the economy of a nation that forces abortion and not be accountable in any way for that nation's sins...how are we responsible for the individual choice a woman makes in a free society? If we are morally implicated in the individual choice a woman makes as an individual merely based upon our politic, are we not morally implicated in the forced abortion policies of China if we shop somewhere that fuels their economy adding to their wealth, prosperity, and influence in the world?

No woman is forced to abort by the government in America. In China they are. However, we say it's ok to help China by purchasing goods made in China?

My point is that we are only zeroing in on a very narrow aspect of social morality and behaving as though it is the pre-eminent issue we face as a people. But things are more complex than that. That's all I'm saying.

Consider this quesion,

What if this were the 1930s or 1940s, gas chambers are in full operation daily, and Walmart was marketing and selling products manufactured in Nazi Germany? Would it be OK to shop at Walmart? What would be the moral implications of a political party hailing Walmart as a sterling example of American business success?

Don't freak out over what I'm saying bro. Try to see the point I'm trying to make.

by the way bro i dont know what you mean as freakin out, but whatever it is it ain happenin here, i just calmly decided that talkin to you further about the subject was not productive, i am workin here you know, lol,dt

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by DividedThigh

by the way bro i dont know what you mean as freakin out, but whatever it is it ain happenin here, i just calmly decided that talkin to you further about the subject was not productive, i am workin here you know, lol,dt

Oh, sorry bro. I gotcha.

I'm not for abortion.

My point was to illustrate how complicated the issue really is and how our moralizing denounces one aspect of the issue but totally ignores another. China's forced abortion policy is far more henious than America's policy of choice. Yet we don't mind buying from a retailer that heavily contributes to China's economy. Like I asked in an earlier post...if this were the 1940s and the concentration camps, ovens, and gas chambers were in full swing...would it be OK to buy German at Walmart?

We ask if it's OK to vote Democratic because they're for choice...and then go shopping at Walmart to save a buck. It just doesn't seem right to me, especially if one says they believe that abortion is the pre-eminent moral issue of our day.

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Oh, sorry bro. I gotcha.

I'm not for abortion.

My point was to illustrate how complicated the issue really is and how our moralizing denounces one aspect of the issue but totally ignores another. China's forced abortion policy is far more henious than America's policy of choice. Yet we don't mind buying from a retailer that heavily contributes to China's economy. Like I asked in an earlier post...if this were the 1940s and the concentration camps, ovens, and gas chambers were in full swing...would it be OK to buy German at Walmart?

We ask if it's OK to vote Democratic because they're for choice...and then go shopping at Walmart to save a buck. It just doesn't seem right to me, especially if one says they believe that abortion is the pre-eminent moral issue of our day.

well i am glad we at least cleared that up, have a great day bro, dt

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Dave...instead of getting side tracked in a thread over one thing said...PM me or start a new thread. Don't hijack the thread dude. lol

Incoming!

[stmatthew]

Havn't read past the first page. My one and only question is, will CC preach the gospel to them and call them to repentance?

If not, then she will, as some have stated, just leave them feeling affirmed in their sinful lifestyle. The TRUE HOLY GHOST ALWAYS reproves sin. If sin is not reproved, then the Gospel Light did not shine into the darkness of the peoples hearts.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Havn't read past the first page. My one and only question is, will CC preach the gospel to them and call them to repentance?

If not, then she will, as some have stated, just leave them feeling affirmed in their sinful lifestyle. The TRUE HOLY GHOST ALWAYS reproves sin. If sin is not reproved, then the Gospel Light did not shine into the darkness of the peoples hearts.

Extremely well said!