We Must Rethink A Few Things

[NW Pastor]

Originally Posted by Dan'D

You must remember UPC left the Tulsa 6, not the other way around. Think about all the changes that have gone on in the UPC over the last 10 - 15 years if it had happen all at one time every person at that church would leave. But because it has happen over a period of time we don't think about it.

The Bible and what God expect from us has not changed but churches have changed.

The Tulse 6 has a great following and there belief is grounded in the Bible. Over the period of time a lot of you will be eating your own words.

The UPC is not meant to be the spiritual leaders of the churches as much as organizational leaders. Each Pastor must lead his own church. Bro Haney will not answer to god about the church I attend. My pastor will answer to God regarding the church I attend. This is how it was meant to be. This is bible God chose my pastor to lead my church. Bro Haney was voted in. The resolution was voted in. Each pastor has the obligation to determined what is right for his church. He must answer to God for that.

I have spoke with many of saint that say a good percentage of the people in there church have a TV in there home. The reason is the Pastor has not felt that is was that important. AS well as other standards. The UPC has changed and it would take a blind person not to see that.

So again I say ”the UPC left us.”

Dan’D

I believe in the power of the local church, and that God's church is not necessarily a hierarchical organization. However, I would like to discuss a couple of points you made which I believe undermine your position.

1. Your pastor, unless he started the church or inherited it from his father or father-in-law, was elected. Did God choose him, or did the church board and members? In a HG filled church they should work together. Would you be willing to show how a church board and members are more in tuned with the purposes of God than God called preachers?

I wonder.

2. Show me where pastors are the final arbitor in all things.

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Sunni

Perhaps because you are comparing LUCIFER to Men of God-! Agree or disagree with their reasons for starting the WPF- fine- but you do not know their hearts! These men have built churches, preached across this country, baptized, prayed with the lost, cried with the grieving, etc. and etc.... They made a stand on principles...you may not agree- I understand that...

No sir, I am not comparing THEM with the devil. Pride can be found in ANYONE'S heart. I am not above that temptation. I've been there. Done that. But, repented of it. I am very familiar with THAT form of iniquity. I guard my heart carefully because I know how subtle and deceiving it is.

But, the SPLIT, the ugly break up from a godly fellowship in the manner that it was done, IS the result of PRIDE. PRIDE is not the man himself, but it is the work of the enemy in the heart of men who believe the LIE.

But please...

Johnny Godair, Floyd Odom, Crawford Coon, Nate Wilson, Kenny Godair & Larry Booker...

Read that twice! These are the names of the men that you are laying such charges at their feet. This thread pushes the limits!

I truly understand disagreement with their actions. I understand being angry if you feel differently than them. I understand being protective of the UPC organization and speaking out. I understand even poking fun! ...this is a forum full of discussion, disagreement, and true and false information...

I am not in the least angry. I am not poking fun. Yes, I am very much hurt by men whom I had the HIGHEST respect for, and loved greatly. Yes, I fully disagree with the way that they have done things. It is clearly an exaltation of SELF, as far as I am concerned. I do not know all six but only four...three better than the fourth. Yet, I had great respect for the others that I did not know but known from a Conference pulpit.

This should not be, however, an open platform to bash these men's hearts. Please note- God knows their hearts- you do not!

I would have better understood their hearts if they would have gone to the G.C. weeping sounding the warning that the rest of us are on our way to perdition unless we repent of the resolution. In stead of performing in the role of a Prophet, a watchman on the wall, but a stealthy sneak to call out a following after themselves is not the role of the Prophet-Watchman. Men of THAT caliber walk alone.

Please do one thing...PRETEND for a minute that you actually respect one of these six men...maybe one of them prayed you through, or stood by you when you laid a loved one in the grave, or preached a message that stirred your heart, or reached for you when all else quit, or came to your city and started a church when there was not one, or etc., etc, ..

...and then think how you would feel when some anonymous poster starts making the comparisons you have made in judgement of them. These are beloved Men of God by many...at least show some respect admidst your disagreements with them!

That senario brings me to tears.

I would never, ever try to diminish their past work for God. I know that there will be souls in heaven that have been gleaned by their labors. Indeed, by imagination, I would place myself in the role of one on my way to heaven from the results of their labor. I would never offend such a one at that.

The very thing that you pointed out above is one of the reasons that I feel betrayed and very much hurt over their actions. The very idea of lifting up ONE'S OWN SELF to lead out a large following to separate from beloved bretheren who themselves gave all to built what they have hithertofore enjoyed in sweet fellowship is not only betrayal of THOSE brethreren but the betrayal of the SPIRIT of the prayer of Christ, that THEY ALL MAY BE ONE....

Judas had an ambitious mind. After having been with Christ for three or more years, seeing his power...even over nature itself, he could see the earthly overthrow of the Roman Empire by Jesus and His followers. He projected himself as the Treasurer in the newly formed earthly kingdom after the overthrow of the Roman government by Jesus. The SPIRIT OF THE SPLIT was born in Judas. He could see that all he had to do was ignite the split by pitting the Roman government and Jesus against each other.

Surely after he identified Jesus to the soldiers of the High Priest that conflict would ensue, the flash point would be ignited, the battle would begin, Jesus would overthrow the governments of the world and set up his kingdom here. Then, Judas would be the HERO. He would receive his place of honor, glory and be crowed with the laurels of his LUST. He would be in charge of the Kingdom of God Treasury.

To the horror of Judas, Jesus did not call down ten thousands of angels. To the utter displief of Judas, Jesus submitted to the High Priest's soldiers and to the Roman governement. Jesus showed all the rest of us the way...since He IS THE WAY. It is the way of the cross. It is the way of submission. It is the way of humility. To the astonishment of Judas, THE SPLIT did not occur. It did not happen. Judas, in grief, hung himself, though he deceived himself standing on a false principle...that of overthrowing the Roman Empire by which he justified his actions.

I wonder how the rest of the Apostles of Jesus felt looking upon the actions of Judas? I can only imagine. I know the grief that the rest of them must have felt. I know the disappointment. They could feel the pain of it all, but not to the extent that Jesus felt...his heart burst, turing his sweat into great drops of blood. At least Peter repented after weeping much. Jesus knew it, calling for Peter to come to him.

Failture is part of the human experience but unlike the devil, we CAN repent.

God bless you brother. I feel your heart. I know that you are true and sincere. I only wish that you could feel mine too.

[Sunni]

Apprehended,
First off- sister not brother! Sunni is "Sunneeeee" like the sunshine, not like a son...

Second...You have been quite clear how you feel about these men... If you respected them in the past, why can't you understand...while disagreeing, that they are standing on their convictions. Once again, I implore- judge their actions if you must, but not their hearts....

Third... I have seen some of these men weeping and broken over this decision..., because they felt like they had to make a stand... They have lost finances from their speaking engagements in UPC, they have been the brunt of many, many ill-natured jokes, they have lost friends, they have lost respect from those who don't understand, they have lost a lot- yet they still made the stand. A stand, by the way, that does go way beyond 'resolution 4.

Even if you feel that they are Absalom, even if you feel they are in the wrong, this kingdom belongs to God.

I am a fourth generation UPC girl...I am a Bible College & Secular Grad, I am a minister's wife, I am the mother to one little girl...and now I am former UPC...I do not rejoice in that fact...I am heartbroken....Neither did I ever think that this day would come...But I also love the UPC, and want them to continue "reaching the whole world with the whole gospel." My love for many of the churches and ministers has not changed.

But I believe that there is a cause worth standing for, and I am not a spiritual sissie following the lead of Legalistic Dictators. Furthermore, I do not think that all of the UPC is 'going charismatic' etc., etc... I do, realize, as many do not- that the UPC is NOT the church...the foundation is not built on fellowships or organizations....

You- you have no respect for these men and you seem to know their hearts.

Me- I know them, their lives speak loudly to me, their burdens have been obvious to me, and their ministries...well, they are 'watchmen on the wall.'

They have cried danger.

I do not ignore their cry.

I have no issue wtih you, in fact, you and I would probably get along great in 'real' life...and once again, I even understand where you are coming from... I can fight just as passionately for things I believe in... You believe in the organization, you believe these men are doing that organization harm...truly, I get it...

However, this kingdom is God's- perhaps these men are not the Absalom's you think they are... Just perhaps, you are wrong...

In the end, we can be brothers and sisters and hold different cards in our hands.

I will address your issues you raised above when I have time...right now, I have a date with my husband....

God bless you - even if I disagree with you!!

[Jodell]

RETHINK ??? funny you should use that term . That is the term Robert Shuller is using to bring New Age teaching , Oprah Winfrey is in it and using her TV show to teach the (a course in miracles) concept which is opposite of what the Bible teaches .It is amazing to read teh list of names that attended his Rethink conference at the Crystal cathederal last month . The Christiasns say why do we need to RETHINK what God has said , he meant what He said then and now , He is the same yesterday ,today and forever.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Jodell

RETHINK ??? funny you should use that term . That is the term Robert Shuller is using to bring New Age teaching , Oprah Winfrey is in it and using her TV show to teach the (a course in miracles) concept which is opposite of what the Bible teaches .It is amazing to read teh list of names that attended his Rethink conference at the Crystal cathederal last month . The Christiasns say why do we need to RETHINK what God has said , he meant what He said then and now , He is the same yesterday ,today and forever.

Unlike you, I know nothing of the teachings of Robert Shuller or Oprah Winfrey. I do not follow their teachings nor do I wish to. I have never attended anything at nor have I ever seen the Crystal Cathederal. Thank you, but I would just as soon not hear of it or to know anything about it.

The Word of God is my Anchor and Stay. I never said that we should rethink the WORD. Where did you get that idea from? Did you get it from Oprah Winfrey? I would advise you to stop listening to them. They cannot do you any good.

[Apprehended]

Sister Sunni...

I appreciate your words.

Like you, I am 5th generation Pentecost, having children who are also graduates of UPCI Bible colleges.

I am scheduled to catch a flight out of DFW this afternoon. I have little time to be here now but I want to respond to your last post at the first opportunity.

God bless you sister. I trust that your husband treated you like a queen on Valentine's day.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sunni

Apprehended,
First off- sister not brother! Sunni is "Sunneeeee" like the sunshine, not like a son...

Second...You have been quite clear how you feel about these men... If you respected them in the past, why can't you understand...while disagreeing, that they are standing on their convictions. Once again, I implore- judge their actions if you must, but not their hearts....

Third... I have seen some of these men weeping and broken over this decision..., because they felt like they had to make a stand... They have lost finances from their speaking engagements in UPC, they have been the brunt of many, many ill-natured jokes, they have lost friends, they have lost respect from those who don't understand, they have lost a lot- yet they still made the stand. A stand, by the way, that does go way beyond 'resolution 4.

Even if you feel that they are Absalom, even if you feel they are in the wrong, this kingdom belongs to God.

I am a fourth generation UPC girl...I am a Bible College & Secular Grad, I am a minister's wife, I am the mother to one little girl...and now I am former UPC...I do not rejoice in that fact...I am heartbroken....Neither did I ever think that this day would come...But I also love the UPC, and want them to continue "reaching the whole world with the whole gospel." My love for many of the churches and ministers has not changed.

But I believe that there is a cause worth standing for, and I am not a spiritual sissie following the lead of Legalistic Dictators. Furthermore, I do not think that all of the UPC is 'going charismatic' etc., etc... I do, realize, as many do not- that the UPC is NOT the church...the foundation is not built on fellowships or organizations....

You- you have no respect for these men and you seem to know their hearts.

Me- I know them, their lives speak loudly to me, their burdens have been obvious to me, and their ministries...well, they are 'watchmen on the wall.'

They have cried danger.

I do not ignore their cry.

I have no issue wtih you, in fact, you and I would probably get along great in 'real' life...and once again, I even understand where you are coming from... I can fight just as passionately for things I believe in... You believe in the organization, you believe these men are doing that organization harm...truly, I get it...

However, this kingdom is God's- perhaps these men are not the Absalom's you think they are... Just perhaps, you are wrong...

In the end, we can be brothers and sisters and hold different cards in our hands.

I will address your issues you raised above when I have time...right now, I have a date with my husband....

God bless you - even if I disagree with you!!

I appreciate this post. It's come straight from your heart, I can tell.

[StillStanding]

Sunni, I can't look at your avatar without thinking of the song, "Sunny", which was written by a friend of mine, Bobby Hebb! I sold him a Steinway grand piano. Great guy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjZaX...eature=related

[Sunni]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

Sunni, I can't look at your avatar without thinking of the song, "Sunny", which was written by a friend of mine, Bobby Hebb! I sold him a Steinway grand piano. Great guy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjZaX...eature=related

Great talent!! Well, I'm glad I can bring you some good memories!!

[robert]

Originally Posted by CaliG

I personally think some of us here are way too concerned about this 'movement'. I heard a great message last evening, in person, by my pastor, one of our Assistant General Superintendents and he assured us that the UPCI is better and stronger than in years past--that even though a 'few' have left us, multiple times more than those have been licensed by the UPCI in that same time frame. Life goes on and God is still on the throne!

I don't think broad and wide should be the goal...but strait and narrow is the way that leadeth to eternal life. Many are called but few are chosen.