Agreed, it's not like a local church, but the UPC has to protect it's best intrest. If there's an outside or inside influence encouraging ministers to leave and join another organization, it'll hurt the UPC financially and number wise. For that matter they have a right to try to block whoever it is.
Yer not about right, you ARE right! For this very reason, I don't think the double-dippers will be tolerated for long. Every pastor knows that when a saint (or should I say attendee) becomes disgruntled/apathetic/rebellious, etc., the first place you will usually notice a change is in their giving.
On an organizational level, I gather that many cons are questioning how monies are being allocated by FMD and I assume other departments. I have recently received letters promoting an alternative method of giving to missionaries. The idea is to send your money to this independent distributor who will then send 100% of your offerings to the missionary of your choosing-- whether they be UPC, ALJC, or some other OP group--thus ensuring that the missionary is really getting the money. This is a blatant end run around the org's bureacracy, and of course I received this letter soon after GC.
The first thing the Tulsa group will do (if they indeed try to stay in the org and become some sort of lobbying group to turn the org back in their direction) is try to starve the UPC of cash.
I say if you want out, just get out, because the effect this tactic will have is the UPC will then cut off the detracting group and swing even further to the left. The U-cons place in the org will then be quickly filled by U-libs, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing, but it's probably no worse than the other. I'm just not a big fan of extremism on either end. Anyways, in my evermore increasingly humble opinion (haha), the Tulsa group needs to generate a huge, diehard following quickly or they will be nothing more than a
self-marginalized splinter group that the average Apostolic will never know existed 5 years from now.
Yer not about right, you ARE right! For this very reason, I don't think the double-dippers will be tolerated for long. Every pastor knows that when a saint (or should I say attendee) becomes disgruntled/apathetic/rebellious, etc., the first place you will usually notice a change is in their giving.
On an organizational level, I gather that many cons are questioning how monies are being allocated by FMD and I assume other departments. I have recently received letters promoting an alternative method of giving to missionaries. The idea is to send your money to this independent distributor who will then send 100% of your offerings to the missionary of your choosing-- whether they be UPC, ALJC, or some other OP group--thus ensuring that the missionary is really getting the money. This is a blatant end run around the org's bureacracy, and of course I received this letter soon after GC.
The first thing the Tulsa group will do (if they indeed try to stay in the org and become some sort of lobbying group to turn the org back in their direction) is try to starve the UPC of cash.
I say if you want out, just get out, because the effect this tactic will have is the UPC will then cut off the detracting group and swing even further to the left. The U-cons place in the org will then be quickly filled by U-libs, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing, but it's probably no worse than the other. I'm just not a big fan of extremism on either end. Anyways, in my evermore increasingly humble opinion (haha), the Tulsa group needs to generate a huge, diehard following quickly or they will be nothing more than a
self-marginalized splinter group that the average Apostolic will never know existed 5 years from now.
Could it be the IAM foundation that you are talking about. This particular effort was started by Jonathan Alvear, and has been around for quite a while. It has nothing to do with the UPC or Tulsa. He is AMF. But I do know that a lot of UPCI ministers are tired of the beurocracy and deceit of the FMD, and have rerouted their funds to the missionaries through IAM.
I think that IF the main goal is that the missionary gets the funds he needs to fulfill his calling, then the goal is reached no matter where it comes from. I personally will send nothing through the FMD.
Could it be the IAM foundation that you are talking about. This particular effort was started by Jonathan Alvear, and has been around for quite a while. It has nothing to do with the UPC or Tulsa. He is AMF. But I do know that a lot of UPCI ministers are tired of the beurocracy and deceit of the FMD, and have rerouted their funds to the missionaries through IAM.
I think that IF the main goal is that the missionary gets the funds he needs to fulfill his calling, then the goal is reached no matter where it comes from. I personally will send nothing through the FMD.
St. Matthew, could you elaborate on the bolded portion? Perhaps give me an example?
I can't remember the group that sent me that info, although that name sounds familiar for some reason. I could have just saw it in the bible,though. I just know I had never received anything from them before and then suddenly, after GC, it appeared in my mailbox.
I agree that so long as the missionary gets the money, the source doesn't matter. But IMO the org will not sit idly by if huge amounts of finance are being siphoned off. They will figure out a way to regenerate their funds.....Just hoping they don't see raising our dues as the best short-term solution.
St. Matthew, could you elaborate on the bolded portion? Perhaps give me an example?
I can't remember the group that sent me that info, although that name sounds familiar for some reason. I could have just saw it in the bible,though. I just know I had never received anything from them before and then suddenly, after GC, it appeared in my mailbox.
I agree that so long as the missionary gets the money, the source doesn't matter. But IMO the org will not sit idly by if huge amounts of finance are being siphoned off. They will figure out a way to regenerate their funds.....Just hoping they don't see raising our dues as the best short-term solution.
I do know that FMD does take some % for administrative use. it exceeds 10% but is not 20%. if you send any missionary any money via FMD, they will take that %.
as to the hypocracy issue, there have been many charges thru the years. there are ongoing issues even now. As to their validity, it seems to me, that depends on which side of the debate you are on.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I will admit I haven't gone through this entire thread, but I can tell you that JC will never be GS of the UPC.
JC wants it, but he couldn't control departmental spending when he was at HQ. Why elect another guy who will just ask for more money to be thrown away on $7K desks as well as over $200k for the renovation of a delapidated historical building (Whiteway) in downtown St. Louis that has never been used?
JJ wants it, and truth be told runs it now. But the Oracle installation at WEC was his idea and has almost sunk a few departments. That system has costed us dearly (to the tune of millions) and is still not even fully functional.
I would like to know why members of the General Board never reigned in either man.
I do know that FMD does take some % for administrative use. it exceeds 10% but is not 20%. if you send any missionary any money via FMD, they will take that %.
as to the hypocracy issue, there have been many charges thru the years. there are ongoing issues even now. As to their validity, it seems to me, that depends on which side of the debate you are on.
No, but FMD is covering other depts. debt with money donated specifically to missionaries.
I will admit I haven't gone through this entire thread, but I can tell you that JC will never be GS of the UPC.
JC wants it, but he couldn't control departmental spending when he was at HQ. Why elect another guy who will just ask for more money to be thrown away on $7K desks as well as over $200k for the renovation of a delapidated histrorical building (Whiteway) in downtown St. Louis that has never been used?
JJ wants it, and truth be told runs it now. But the Oracle installation at WEC was his idea and has almost sunk a few departments. That system has costed us dearly (to the tune of millions) and is still not even fully functional.
I would like to know why members of the General Board never reigned in either man. David Bernard is the best choice for the job.
I will admit I haven't gone through this entire thread, but I can tell you that JC will never be GS of the UPC.
JC wants it, but he couldn't control departmental spending when he was at HQ. Why elect another guy who will just ask for more money to be thrown away on $7K desks as well as over $200k for the renovation of a delapidated historical building (Whiteway) in downtown St. Louis that has never been used?
JJ wants it, and truth be told runs it now. But the Oracle installation at WEC was his idea and has almost sunk a few departments. That system has costed us dearly (to the tune of millions) and is still not even fully functional.
I would like to know why members of the General Board never reigned in either man.
David Bernard is the best choice for the job.
Period.
Too bad there isn't anyone with General Board connections on AFF.
I would like to have an answer as to why this type of spending was allowed.
Especially the Whiteway Tabernacle building fiasco.
The building is not in use because thieves (in the worst part of St. Louis) continue to pillage it. Yet, over $200K was spent to renovate it.
I wonder how many church plants that could have helped?
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