If You Are A Disciple

[1 God]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Why do you put “rising again” in bold but not “the fall”

Because you guys see it in the reverse(one must fall from something to rise again). I wanted to make sure you saw that. Everyone here seems to celebrate the fall of national Israel and not the rising again. It is a phenomenon in Christianity. Paul in Romans 11 spoke about that very thing, saying boast not against them....

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?...


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


This should be taught in every Church.

[1 God]

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This verse of misquoted in churches all over America. The phenomenon about this verse is that it’s misquoted towards Christians and not contextually quoted. Everybody knows what this means contextually. It’s about God keeping his promise to the fathers towards national Israel. We need to get our message right if we are the purveyors of truth.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by 1 God

The apostles thought they were in the last days(end of the age)...

The apostles thought...but were mistaken?

The apostles thought...but changed their mind after further revelation?

Did the Twelve that Christ selected not know the times and seasons that their Lord told them they were living in?

..., but this was always in the back of their mind....34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;. Jesus told them about it per Luke 21;24, but they found out the hard way when Israel was not restored yet in their lifetimes. This event was reserved for us to see.

Back of their mind...like an old forgotten song?

Back of their mind...as if to say Simeon's prophecy was of little value?

Here are the things you are missing:

Luke's quotation of Simeon's prophecy makes use of the Greek word ἀνάστασιν - anastasin, from the root ἀνάστασις - anastasis, meaning resurrection, translated that way in the KJV 39 times.

Additionally, note that Simeon did not say, so Luke did not quote, the prophecy as saying that Jesus would be the cause of the falling and rising of everyone in Israel, or that Jesus would be the cause of the falling and rising of ALL Israel.

Jesus would be the cause of the falling and rising of MANY IN Israel.

Simeon doesn't refer to the entire nation of people. Just many within that nation. But just as many as would rise, would also fall.

The Greek is clear. The phrase "of many" applies just as much to the ones Jesus causes to fall.

So, if you think this is a far-future prophecy about some "National Israel" (an un-Biblical phrase, by the way), then you cannot tie it to the prophecy in Romans 11:26.

Because, if what you are saying is correct, these prophecies contradict one another. One says many in Israel will fall, and the other indicates all Israel shall be saved.

This contradiction cannot be reconciled, unless one understands one or the other prophecy in a different light.

The truth is, not all are Israel, who are of Israel, nor yet, just because they are physically descended from Abraham, does that make them children of God, but rather, in Isaac shall the seed of God be called. Therefore Paul wrote, that those who are merely children of the flesh, are not the children of God, but rather, the children of the promise are the children of God (Romans 9:6-8).

And Isaac is the child of promise (Galatians 4:28). Therefore only those who are in Christ, are in Isaac, and are heirs of Abraham according to that promise.

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV),

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Outward, biological hereditary or physical descendance, or even the sign of circumcision, does not make one a Jew, according to Paul. Only those who have received circumcision of heart in the human spirit, not merely of the letter of the Law, (which is to say, by mere outward receiving of the command done upon you when you were eight days old), who are not praised by men, but by God, are to be considered Jews.

The children of God, therefore, that are members of His house, who make up the citizenry of His Kingdom, are from all nations, provided they fear Him and work righteousness (Acts 10:34-35). Anyone who does not meet those prerequisites are outside of the covenant, and therefore are to be understood as heathens and foreigners, despite any alleged bloodline back to the Friend of God.

Everyone who does, however, and continues to do so, till of the end of their respective lives, shall live eternally. And so, in that regard, ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.

[1 God]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The apostles thought...but were mistaken?

The apostles thought...but changed their mind after further revelation?

Did the Twelve that Christ selected not know the times and seasons that their Lord told them they were living in?



Back of their mind...like an old forgotten song?

Back of their mind...as if to say Simeon's prophecy was of little value?

Here are the things you are missing:

Luke's quotation of Simeon's prophecy makes use of the Greek word ἀνάστασιν - anastasin, from the root ἀνάστασις - anastasis, meaning resurrection, translated that way in the KJV 39 times.

Additionally, note that Simeon did not say, so Luke did not quote, the prophecy as saying that Jesus would be the cause of the falling and rising of everyone in Israel, or that Jesus would be the cause of the falling and rising of ALL Israel.

Jesus would be the cause of the falling and rising of MANY IN Israel.

Simeon doesn't refer to the entire nation of people. Just many within that nation. But just as many as would rise, would also fall.

The Greek is clear. The phrase "of many" applies just as much to the ones Jesus causes to fall.

So, if you think this is a far-future prophecy about some "National Israel" (an un-Biblical phrase, by the way), then you cannot tie it to the prophecy in Romans 11:26.

Because, if what you are saying is correct, these prophecies contradict one another. One says many in Israel will fall, and the other indicates all Israel shall be saved.

This contradiction cannot be reconciled, unless one understands one or the other prophecy in a different light.

The truth is, not all are Israel, who are of Israel, nor yet, just because they are physically descended from Abraham, does that make them children of God, but rather, in Isaac shall the seed of God be called. Therefore Paul wrote, that those who are merely children of the flesh, are not the children of God, but rather, the children of the promise are the children of God (Romans 9:6-8).

And Isaac is the child of promise (Galatians 4:28). Therefore only those who are in Christ, are in Isaac, and are heirs of Abraham according to that promise.

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV),



Outward, biological hereditary or physical descendance, or even the sign of circumcision, does make one a Jew, according to Paul. Only those who have received circumcision of heart in the human spirit, not merely of the letter of the Law, (which is to say, by mere outward receiving of the command done upon you when you were eight days old), who are not praised by men, but by God, are to be considered Jews.

The children of God, therefore, that are members of His house, who make up the citizenry of His Kingdom, are from all nations, provided they fear Him and work righteousness (Acts 10:34-35). Anyone who does not meet those prerequisites are outside of the covenant, and therefore are to understood as heathens and foreigners, despite any alleged bloodline back to the Friend of God.

Everyone who does, however, and continues to do so, till of the end of their respective lives, shall live eternally. And so, in that regard, ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.

Simeon prophesied the fall and rise of Israel. He began to see the beginning of the fall. He did not see the rise of Israel. It’s pretty cut and dry there. He did not even expect to see the rise of Israel. He definitely did not prophesy or see the fall and rise of the church. The passage in Luke chapter 2 was only talking about national Israel when using the term “Israel “. Romans 11 is a confirmation of what Luke 2 describes. The rise of a few folks of national Israel begins in part in Acts 2, but is finally fulfilled at the return of Christ as you spoke of per Jer 31. The word “many” has no final number. It is simply a process until the return of Christ. The term Israel cannot be exchanged with church in this prophecy.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by 1 God

Simeon prophesied the fall and rise of Israel.

No, he did not. He said quite specifically, that Jesus would be the cause of the fall and rise of many IN Israel. You ignore that preposition at your peril, because prepositions, definitionally, predicate meaning. If you lose sight on the word "in" in the prophecy, you will not correctly understand it.

He began to see the beginning of the fall.

Also, not true. He prophesied the fall of many, which means, individuals within the nation of Israel falling away from faith in God on the account of Christ, the stumblingblock and rock of offense. He saw nothing regarding the nation as a whole. He foresaw that within Israel, many would be offended and repulsed by Jesus, but many others would receive Him as Lord and Christ, and be saved in the resurrection from the dead.

He did not see the rise of Israel.

This, too, is not true. He said very specifically that Jesus would cause many IN Israel to fall. He understood that many of the Israelites of Christ's day would reject Him as Messiah, which would eventually lead to their spiritual downfall. How do we know? Because Simeon said that Jesus would be a sign spoken against. This happened throughout the Gospel accounts, as Pharisees and Sadducees and the priesthood rejected Jesus, not to mention the common Judean who were swayed by the public opinion those groups offered.

It’s pretty cut and dry there. He did not even expect to see the rise of Israel. He definitely did not prophesy or see the fall and rise of the church.

Jesus was not sent, but to the lost tribes of Israel. The Gentile mission was going to come years later. The church that began on Pentecost was 100% exclusively Jewish, descendants of Jacob. They were the church, or ekklesia. Any of the Jews of Judea or Israel who rejected Jesus, were in turn rejected by Jesus. They lost out on their otherwise cherished place as the children of God. And they were judged accordingly.

The passage in Luke chapter 2 was only talking about national Israel when using the term “Israel “.

There is no such things as "national Israel" in the Bible. There is the nation of Israel, which was rent in two under Rehoboam. Ten tribes created a confederacy around Jeroboam, but were eventually destroyed and dispersed in 722 BC by the Assyrians. Israel from that point on, was no more. Only the tribe of Judah, Levi, and some from Benjamin survived as a people, even after the Babylonian captivity, all the way to the Roman occupation.

But there was no Israel as a nation by that time. Just Jews.

Romans 11 is a confirmation of what Luke 2 describes. The rise of a few folks of national Israel begins in part in Acts 2, but is finally fulfilled at the return of Christ as you spoke of per Jer 31. The word “many” has no final number. It is simply a process until the return of Christ. The term Israel cannot be exchanged with church in this prophecy.

I did not speak of the return of Christ at all. And just because the word "many" describes an indeterminate amount, let us all be clear:

Many does NOT equal ALL. And Paul used the word "all" in Romans 11:26.

[1 God]

[QUOTE=votivesoul;1605603]No, he did not. He said quite specifically, that Jesus would be the cause of the fall and rise of many IN Israel. You ignore that preposition at your peril, because prepositions, definitionally, predicate meaning. If you lose sight on the word "in" in the prophecy, you will not correctly understand it.

He began to see the beginning of the fall.[/quote

Also, not true. He prophesied the fall of many, which means, individuals within the nation of Israel falling away from faith in God on the account of Christ, the stumblingblock and rock of offense. He saw nothing regarding the nation as a whole. He foresaw that within Israel, many would be offended and repulsed by Jesus, but many others would receive Him as Lord and Christ, and be saved in the resurrection from the dead.



This, too, is not true. He said very specifically that Jesus would call many IN Israel to fall. He understood that many of the Israelites of Christ's day would reject Him as Messiah, which would eventually lead to their spiritual downfall. How do we know? Because Simeon said that Jesus would be a sign spoken against. This happened throughout the Gospel accounts, as Pharisees and Sadducees and the priesthood rejected Jesus, not to mention the common Judean who were swayed by the public opinion those groups offered.



Jesus was not sent, but to the lost tribes of Israel. The Gentile mission was going to come years later. The church that began on Pentecost was 100% exclusively Jewish, descendants of Jacob. They were the church, or ekklesia. Any of the Jews of Judea or Israel who rejected Jesus, were in turn rejected by Jesus. They lost out on their otherwise cherished place as the children of God. And they were judged accordingly.



There is no such things as "national Israel" in the Bible. There is the nation of Israel, which was rent in two under Rehoboam. Ten tribes created a confederacy around Jeroboam, but were eventually destroyed and dispersed in 722 BC by the Assyrians. Israel from that point on, was no more. Only the tribe of Judah, Levi, and some from Benjamin survived as a people, even after the Babylonian captivity, all the way to the Roman occupation.

But there was no Israel as a nation by that time. Just Jews.



I did not speak of the return of Christ at all. And just because the word "many" describes an indeterminate amount, let us all be clear:

Many does NOT equal ALL. And Paul used the word "all" in Romans 11:26.

The term, "many", has been the saving of Jews for 2000 years. All Jews will be saved per Jer 31 at the return of Christ. Even before all Jews are saved, "the woman"(national Israel) will be chased by Satan and hidden by God in the great tribulation. The woman is not the gentile church part, but the specific national Jewish part. Satan will try to eliminate her from the prophecy of Luke 2, Romans 11, Zech 14 and Jer 31 etc. You see, the rise of Israel is a process until the Lord returns to save them all and Make Jerusalem Safe Again....11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

[1 God]

Another description of the rise of national Israel, climaxed at the return of Christ to save them all.....37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

[votivesoul]

[QUOTE=1 God;1605605]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

No, he did not. He said quite specifically, that Jesus would be the cause of the fall and rise of many IN Israel. You ignore that preposition at your peril, because prepositions, definitionally, predicate meaning. If you lose sight on the word "in" in the prophecy, you will not correctly understand it.



The term, "many", has been the saving of Jews for 2000 years. All Jews will be saved per Jer 31 at the return of Christ. Even before all Jews are saved, "the woman"(national Israel) will be chased by Satan and hidden by God in the great tribulation. The woman is not the gentile church part, but the specific national Jewish part. Satan will try to eliminate her from the prophecy of Luke 2, Romans 11, Zech 14 and Jer 31 etc. You see, the rise of Israel is a process until the Lord returns to save them all and Make Jerusalem Safe Again....11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

You don't think Jeremiah 31:31-34 has been fulfilled, even though it is quoted from twice in Hebrews as fulfilled?

Regarding the "woman" from Revelation 12, there isn't anything in the passage to suggest it's Israel in some far off, distant future. In fact, it is very much an early 1st century astronomical retelling of the birth of Jesus, as seen in the heavens:

[1 God]

[QUOTE=votivesoul;1605648]

Originally Posted by 1 God

You don't think Jeremiah 31:31-34 has been fulfilled, even though it is quoted from twice in Hebrews as fulfilled?

Regarding the "woman" from Revelation 12, there isn't anything in the passage to suggest it's Israel in some far off, distant future. In fact, it is very much an early 1st century astronomical retelling of the birth of Jesus, as seen in the heavens:

Per Jer 31, it is only partially fulfilled(fulfilled in part). We are simply included in the fulfillment promise to future national Israel in a partial way right now(Hebrews 10:15-17). Paul addresses this partial experience at the end of 1 Cor 13. The actual fulfilment is at the return of Christ when "that which is perfect is come".

Also, Rev 12 has not happened yet. The woman is national Israel per the description in the passage. Satan(the dragon) wants to annihilate her to make all of the hundreds of OT prophecies of God via future national Israel a lie from God. He fails, which is seen per God hiding Israel from the wrath of Satan during the great tribulation.

The RCC teaches the woman with 12 stars is Mary, queen of heaven, which is ridiculous.

[diakonos]

[QUOTE=1 God;1605663]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Per Jer 31, it is only partially fulfilled(fulfilled in part). We are simply included in the fulfillment promise to future national Israel in a partial way right now(Hebrews 10:15-17). Paul addresses this partial experience at the end of 1 Cor 13. The actual fulfilment is at the return of Christ when "that which is perfect is come".

Also, Rev 12 has not happened yet. The woman is national Israel per the description in the passage. Satan(the dragon) wants to annihilate her to make all of the hundreds of OT prophecies of God via future national Israel a lie from God. He fails, which is seen per God hiding Israel from the wrath of Satan during the great tribulation.

The RCC teaches the woman with 12 stars is Mary, queen of heaven, which is ridiculous.

Rev 12 has not been fulfilled? Messiah hasn’t been born? Mmkay.