When Was The Canon Established?

[Dedicated Mind]

Was the canon established before 70 AD by the apostles, since the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned in the scriptures, or was the canon established by the later roman councils such as Nicea in 325 AD? Can you provide any evidence or support for your position?

[pelathais]

There are no historical records that the apostles of the First Century ever had a NT canon. They were certainly aware of the writings that were circulating (2 Peter 3:15-16). One curious note is that the NT writers themselves used "non-canonical" books from the OT time period and quoted them in the exact manner that they quoted other Scripture.

But, given the disputes that arose as early as the end of the First Century, it is clear that the Apostles themselves had not prepared anything like a list of writings that were to be considered "Scripture." None of the combatants in this issue even claims that such a list existed.

The earliest "list" of a canon of the NT was made by a "heretic" - Marcion of Sinope (A.D. 85-160). His attempt at "rewriting" NT theology was then answered by a flurry of others who proposed the more orthodox canons.

It seems that this "heretic" was the impetus behind the whole notion of a NT canon and was the catalyst of the various canons. What's interesting is that no "Ecumenical" Church council had "fixed" a NT canon until the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...estament_canon

[*AQuietPlace*]

What was he referring to, here?

2 Tim. 3:16

King James Bible
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Scott Hutchinson]

Maybe this might help. http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net...onization.html

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

What was he referring to, here?

2 Tim. 3:16

King James Bible
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:15 - the "Scriptures" that Timothy had known "from a child." This prepositional phrase would appear to have Paul not taking his own writings into account in the statement that follows in verse 16.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by pelathais

2 Timothy 3:15 - the "Scriptures" that Timothy had known "from a child." This prepositional phrase would appear to have Paul not taking his own writings into account in the statement that follows in verse 16.

The Scriptures that Timothy would have studied... was it the Old Testament as we know it? The Torah? Something different altogether?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by pelathais

2 Timothy 3:15 - the "Scriptures" that Timothy had known "from a child." This prepositional phrase would appear to have Paul not taking his own writings into account in the statement that follows in verse 16.

So it wasn't until the New Testament canon was established that Paul's writings were considered 'scripture'?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

The Scriptures that Timothy would have studied... was it the Old Testament as we know it? The Torah? Something different altogether?

The Torah includes just the first 5 books of the OT. This would have been the "canon" of the Sadducees. What the early Christians studied included all of the books of our OT plus some other writings such as the apocryphal Book of Enoch.

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

So it wasn't until the New Testament canon was established that Paul's writings were considered 'scripture'?

No. What I was saying was that Paul himself wasn't appealing to his own writings nor even the writings of any of the other NT writers in 1 Timothy 3:16. He was only referring to the "Scriptures" Timothy had known from a child.

This doesn't discount the inspiration of the NT itself. It's just what Paul was talking to Timothy about - the Scriptures Timothy had known from his childhood.

Peter would later refer to Paul's writings as "Scripture."

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by pelathais

There are no historical records that the apostles of the First Century ever had a NT canon. They were certainly aware of the writings that were circulating (2 Peter 3:15-16). One curious note is that the NT writers themselves used "non-canonical" books from the OT time period and quoted them in the exact manner that they quoted other Scripture.

But, given the disputes that arose as early as the end of the First Century, it is clear that the Apostles themselves had not prepared anything like a list of writings that were to be considered "Scripture." None of the combatants in this issue even claims that such a list existed.

The earliest "list" of a canon of the NT was made by a "heretic" - Marcion of Sinope (A.D. 85-160). His attempt at "rewriting" NT theology was then answered by a flurry of others who proposed the more orthodox canons.

It seems that this "heretic" was the impetus behind the whole notion of a NT canon and was the catalyst of the various canons. What's interesting is that no "Ecumenical" Church council had "fixed" a NT canon until the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...estament_canon

I guess my real question is who established the canon and when? Was it 1st century christians or the roman church?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

I guess my real question is who established the canon and when? Was it 1st century christians or the roman church?

Interesting article here:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/xn-canon.html