1 John 5:7

[jfrog]

Is 1 John 5:7 a later addition to the bible? If it isn't how do you explain it in relation to oneness?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Is 1 John 5:7 a later addition to the bible? If it isn't how do you explain it in relation to oneness?

Large number of scholars don't believe this was in the original manuscript, or that it was worded like the KJV does. The NIV, which doesn't use the TR, even words it differently.

Either way, it's not a stumbling block to godhead. The burden of proof is not on the Shema, it's on this newfound theology that holds to three separate persons.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Large number of scholars don't believe this was in the original manuscript, or that it was worded like the KJV does. The NIV, which doesn't use the TR, even words it differently.

Either way, it's not a stumbling block to godhead. The burden of proof is not on the Shema, it's on this newfound theology that holds to three separate persons.

Good job jeffery, you tell me it's not a problem and offer no explanation of why it isn't a problem.

[Praxeas]

supposedly it does not appear in any MS that forms the TR but Erasmus added it because some early church father refers to it...something like that

[pelathais]

Up until the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, the only Bibles available in Northern and Western Europe were based upon Jerome's translation of the original languages into Latin. Jerome's work was a boon for its time, Latin was increasingly surpassing Greek as the language of the world.

However, by the 15th century, Latin was pretty much the province of the clergy and the educated elite. There was a hunger for Bibles in the languages that were then common, and not the one from 1,000 years earlier.

When Constantinople fell, bands of refugees made their way into Europe bringing with them their possessions, and their Bibles. Europe was soon filled with excitement over the idea that a new translation could be made from the original languages - much like Jerome had done for his time ten centuries earlier.

The Dutch theologian and linguist Desiderius Erasmus produced a printed edition of the Greek New Testament that is known as the Textus Receptus (or "Received Text"). Erasmus went through scores of manuscripts, redacted the obvious copyist errors and such and compiled his First Edition which was a huge success.

However, there was a problem. The text for a portion of 1 John 5:7-8 was not found by Erasmus. Here's the difference:

5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

The underlined and bolded part is not in the first two editions of Erasmus' Textus Receptus because he could not find the words in any Greek manuscript. Some say he was bullied and pressured relentlessly, until finally he promised to include the passage if "a single manuscript" could be found that had the missing words.

And, what do you know? Someone found one, and with surprising ease too, considering that Erasmus and his team had been scouring Europe for the manuscripts the whole time. However the "missing" element was supplied - not within the text itself, but in a margin. Bruce Metzger argues that the writing is rather "clearly" from the 16th Century, Erasmus' own time.

Others debate this hypothesis. A balanced article can be found at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

[MissBrattified]

Well, it was a bit of an explanation, jfrog! Look at these different translations/versions of the same verses:

ASV:
1Jn 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.


NIV
For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.


The Message
6-8Jesus—the Divine Christ! He experienced a life-giving birth and a death-killing death. Not only birth from the womb, but baptismal birth of his ministry and sacrificial death. And all the while the Spirit is confirming the truth, the reality of God's presence at Jesus' baptism and crucifixion, bringing those occasions alive for us. A triple testimony: the Spirit, the Baptism, the Crucifixion. And the three in perfect agreement.

English Standard Version
7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

Today's New International Version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the [a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Up until the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, the only Bibles available in Northern and Western Europe were based upon Jerome's translation of the original languages into Latin. Jerome's work was a boon for its time, Latin was increasingly surpassing Greek as the language of the world.

However, by the 15th century, Latin was pretty much the province of the clergy and the educated elite. There was a hunger for Bibles in the languages that were then common, and not the one from 1,000 years earlier.

When Constantinople fell, bands of refugees made their way into Europe bringing with them their possessions, and their Bibles. Europe was soon filled with excitement over the idea that a new translation could be made from the original languages - much like Jerome had done for his time ten centuries earlier.

The Dutch theologian and linguist Desiderius Erasmus produced a printed edition of the Greek New Testament that is known as the Textus Receptus (or "Received Text"). Erasmus went through scores of manuscripts, redacted the obvious copyist errors and such and compiled his First Edition which was a huge success.

However, there was a problem. The text for a portion of 1 John 5:7-8 was not found by Erasmus. Here's the difference:

5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

The underlined and bolded part is not in the first two editions of Erasmus' Textus Receptus because he could not find the words in any Greek manuscript. Some say he was bullied and pressured relentlessly, until finally he promised to include the passage if "a single manuscript" could be found that had the missing words.

And, what do you know? Someone found one, and with surprising ease too, considering that Erasmus and his team had been scouring Europe for the manuscripts the whole time. However the "missing" element was supplied - not within the text itself, but in a margin. Bruce Metzger argues that the writing is rather "clearly" from the 16th Century, Erasmus' own time.

Others debate this hypothesis. A balanced article can be found at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

You're a veritable storehouse of knowledge, pel!!!

[Scott Hutchinson]

Wait a minute look at this from the New American Catholic bible.

Starting at verse six.
Jesus Christ it is who came through water and blood-not in water only,
but in water and in blod.
It is the Spirit who testifies to this,
and the Spirit is truth.
Thus there are three that testify,
The Spirit and the water and the blood-----
And these three are of one accord.
Don't burn me at the stake,but I do own and read a New American Catholic bible.

[MissBrattified]

Interesting.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Up until the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, the only Bibles available in Northern and Western Europe were based upon Jerome's translation of the original languages into Latin. Jerome's work was a boon for its time, Latin was increasingly surpassing Greek as the language of the world.

However, by the 15th century, Latin was pretty much the province of the clergy and the educated elite. There was a hunger for Bibles in the languages that were then common, and not the one from 1,000 years earlier.

When Constantinople fell, bands of refugees made their way into Europe bringing with them their possessions, and their Bibles. Europe was soon filled with excitement over the idea that a new translation could be made from the original languages - much like Jerome had done for his time ten centuries earlier.

The Dutch theologian and linguist Desiderius Erasmus produced a printed edition of the Greek New Testament that is known as the Textus Receptus (or "Received Text"). Erasmus went through scores of manuscripts, redacted the obvious copyist errors and such and compiled his First Edition which was a huge success.

However, there was a problem. The text for a portion of 1 John 5:7-8 was not found by Erasmus. Here's the difference:

5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

The underlined and bolded part is not in the first two editions of Erasmus' Textus Receptus because he could not find the words in any Greek manuscript. Some say he was bullied and pressured relentlessly, until finally he promised to include the passage if "a single manuscript" could be found that had the missing words.

And, what do you know? Someone found one, and with surprising ease too, considering that Erasmus and his team had been scouring Europe for the manuscripts the whole time. However the "missing" element was supplied - not within the text itself, but in a margin. Bruce Metzger argues that the writing is rather "clearly" from the 16th Century, Erasmus' own time.

Others debate this hypothesis. A balanced article can be found at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Yea, that's the impression I got from what all I was reading. I haven't investiaged all the claims yet, but it seems there are a few church fathers who quote this verse in their writings early on (I've not verified this yet). I've also read the greek grammer isn't consistent without verse 7 (I have no idea on greek grammer so I have no way to investiage this).