Are "Jackpot" Apostolics Saved?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I'm on lunch right now, but as I have been meditating on this topic and the Scripture, I'd like to direct those that would like to search out what it means to have spiritual "understanding" to Colossians 1 and 2... more to come later.

This is a fairly important topic to me, and I've gotten another pastor's counsel on this matter, and perhaps I'll share it later. I feel it is important that we not be deceived by jackpot salvations and then fail to preach the truth to people.

-Bro. Alex

[@Peace]

To Sept5SavedTeen:

Brother,

Forgive my lengthy post as I try to provide a thoughtfull rebutal to your "post"ulation. You reference Colossians 1 and 2, a wonderful set of chapters to reinforce the necessity of the principles of sound, Apostolic doctrine. However, the epistles are, yes indeedy, letters to the churches established under the first Apostolic church structure. Today, we have a smattering of organizations, church sects, and other groupings which come too close to the way of salvation for us to turn a blind eye. For the man who has believed in the Lord Jesus, repented of his sins and been baptized with the name of Jesus called over him, would you command him to be baptized again? Would you do this only once he utters a satisfactory delineation of oneness doctrine? Why does Paul say that he and Timothy, once they heard of the church in Colosus' faith (verses 9-10)....

For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Sounds to me like they maybe didn't get it all right away. And what of Peter?

"Men and brethren, what shall we do?" What was his reply to the repentant masses?

Was it, "You need to demonstrate an ability to correctly make an oral recitation of oneness doctrine, repent, be baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost"? If so, seems that Peter missed a step when He preached the first apostolic message. Additionally, it seems the common misconception amongst Jews of that time was that the messiah would just be a man King like David, and he was, but we now know through the Holy Spirit that He was also God. Did those preached to on the day on the day of Pentecost immediately realize this? Did they realize that their messiah was God manifest in the flesh? Or did that understanding come later...

[@Peace]

Matthew 16:13

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven...

and then in verse 20:

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

John 14:8

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

and then verses 16-17:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

and verses 19-20:

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

So...

The understanding of the mystery of the godhead is given to those of us whom Jesus has taught by the Spirit of Truth, His Holy Spirit. And now my question, brother Sept5SavedTeen....

What level of "spiritual understanding" beyond what Peter gave in his first alter call do you require for a soul to receive salvation?

My two cents:

It is my understanding that most trinitarians do believe that Jesus is the Son of God / that He is God. It's just the tragedy of that Catholic and heretical separation of the godhead and it's semantics which, I believe, in typical titles baptism, strips them of the power of salvation. I tried to explain to a Catholic man the divinity of Jesus once, and he agreed with me and asked me, incredulously, if what I had just explained just wasn't made clear enough to me through the doctrine of the trinity. I tell you, these that are lost are lost because they will not believe that Jesus is God, and some will not receive Jesus as being fully God, or will not / have not be baptized in his name, but those who believe in one God, though they may ignorantly espouse the trinity, aren't far from salvation if they will allow the Spirit of Truth to lead them into all truth. We've heard several stories already, and I know many more, of those who started their love for Jesus in "repentance" churches and found the truth later through their love of God.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

The need for these people who have been baptized in JESUS' name in trinity churches is not to be embraced as brothers and sisters in Christ, and told they are fine where they are, by apostolics, but they need to be further instructed, and I would even say re-baptized with the fundamental and basic understanding of the Mighty GOD indwelling in Christ. I do believe the first Christians all would have had this knowledge, especially when being taught that:

Acts 2: 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

and then verse 36 told the people that GOD had made JESUS both LORD and Christ. I believe knowledge JESUS Christ being GOD was communicated and understood by the 3000 that were baptized, especially since they didn't have trinitarianism to deal with in their minds.

Also, we can not forget the effects of heresy:

Galatians 5:19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

These people are those that do not walk in or practice the truth, but they have accepted heresy, and probably, in most charismatic churches the people can't remember what was said over them when they were baptized.

I was talking to a 2-GOD person once who said, "Well, we must have said the name of JESUS somewhere during my baptism- I mean, we said everything else, "GLORY!", "HALLELUJAH!", "JESUS!", "YES LORD!""... Just speaking the name over someone in baptism is not sufficient for their salvation, without the person possessing a basic understanding, or at least an acceptance of JESUS being the One True GOD in flesh, come to save men from their sins.

-Bro. Alex

[Eniratak]

Originally Posted by @Peace

I have a simple question for this congregation, and I'd like to get your input and hopefully stimulate some thoughtful, biblical answers.

Are "Jackpot" Apostolics Saved?

I know, I know, I hear you saying, "What is that supposed to mean? NO! NO, NO!!! NO GAMBLING IN THE CHURCH, BROTHER!" Actually, I know some kids who got in trouble for playing poker after service and... Never mind, I digress...

So, let me clarify my question with a hypothetical story:

There is a man who we'll just call Ichabod McPhilistine, ok? Ichabod goes to this church that's kinda' like an ecumenical charismatic deal. Sometimes they baptize in trinity, sometimes in The Name, sometimes in two titles, sometimes one title and The Name, sometimes not at all, sometimes they tell people they can just pray the sinners prayer. So Ichabod finds himself at an alter one day, and repents as they call for those that would like to join the baptism today. It just so happens to be a day when they've decided to use the titles and The Name. Ichabod is baptized, he's filled with the Holy Ghost, his life turns around. "Jackpot!" one might say, he's saved, "He's won the lottery", couch it how you will, he got baptized on the right day out of sheer probability perhaps. Mind you skeptics, remember, he did have The Name of Jesus called over him in baptism in my story.

So, is Ichabod saved? Is he not? If not, why?

What would Jesus say?

I'll tell you my answer later, but I want to hear yours for now.

@Peace with it all.

From what I've just read, I'd say he's saved.
I, personally, don't believe in only Jesus name baptisms, yes, a lot would disagree with me.
Either way, I'm not Jesus, so I can't say what Jesus would say. However, he'd probably be very happy that another person has been baptized.

Just my two cents, of course.