Libertarian for universal healthcare!!

[Originalist]

https://beinglibertarian.com/im-libe...lthcare-heres/

But since this plan would actually slash costs and reduce the government's role, the statists won't go for it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

https://beinglibertarian.com/im-libe...lthcare-heres/

But since this plan would actually slash costs and reduce the government's role, the statists won't go for it.

Like Communism, Libertarianism always sounds good on paper. But it doesn't work in real life. I used to be a die hard libertarian. I can respect Libertarianism, but it just doesn't work. Not one successful nation state on earth can be pointed to as an example of a successful libertarian state.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Like Communism, Libertarianism always sounds good on paper. But it doesn't work in real life. I used to be a die hard libertarian. I can respect Libertarianism, but it just doesn't work. Not one successful nation state on earth can be pointed to as an example of a successful libertarian state.

You didn't read the article.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You didn't read the article.

Did you? Just a couple points linger in my mind... I'll share them, but then I have to go. Maybe I'll touch base again tomorrow.

Fifth, change the tax code to encourage people to get private health savings accounts and instead of requiring or incentivizing companies to buy employees insurance, let taxpayers keep more of their own paychecks so they can shop for their own insurance plans.

This has nearly always been a disaster for the middle class. High deductible HSA plans sound great on paper. However, let's say you have a $4,000 deductible. That means that you have to essentially save up to $4,000 dollars in your HSA and spend it on approved medical treatments, procedures, and supplies BEFORE your insurance kicks in. It's like having no insurance at all for the first $4,000 dollars. And should a crisis hit you and you need to dip into your HSA (like a serious car repair) you'll have to pay taxes and a penalty to use your own money! That's windfall profit for the banks that provide the HSAs! Yep, they just found another way to gouge you a little more, and the conservatives and libertarians lined up for it like lambs to the slaughter. It also creates a tax filing nightmare because you have to keep and track EVERY purchase out of your HSA, or an audit will have you come up short and needing to pay taxes on something you shouldn't have had to pay taxes on. Also, history has shown that people with HSAs tend to NOT go for routine checkups and procedures because they don't have enough in their accounts to cover them. So it ultimately equals no coverage unless you have a catastrophic injury or illness that exceeds $4,000 (of course, the $4,000 WILL be billed to you).

Ah... but for the rich, these are AWESOME. They are tax shelters. If you're rich enough to pay for your medical expenses out of pocket you can turn around and dump thousands and thousands into one of these HSA accounts and avoid paying a significant amount of taxes.

So, unless you're rich, tattoo "Gouge Me" across your forehead. Because only an idiot would support HSAs.

Seventh, change Medicare from directly paying doctors to subsidizing insurance plans retirees choose themselves.

In other words, raid the public trust of Medicare and channel all that money to... corporate insurance providers! This will be a BIG TIME boost to the profit margins of the record profits of the insurance industry. CEO's will get BIG raises from this one. Meanwhile, they offer flimsy plans to seniors that don't cover as much as Medicare, because if comprehensive coverage it is too expensive for Medicare, you can bet your bottom dollar it will also be too expensive for insurance companies.

At the end of the day the public trust has been raided, corporations have gobbled up the funding, working families are paying penalties and hedging on their healthcare, and seniors are left out on the cold paying more for less.

The only part of this plan that I could swallow is maybe allowing people to purchase prescription drugs from other countries.

The rest is simply a corporate raid on the public trust and gimmicks to fool the uneducated.

[Esaias]

The comments are instructive.

[Aquila]

I know what!

Let's just raid the entire public trust of Medicare and Medicaid... and hand it over to several billionaires and allow them to manage what kind of coverage THEY think we all need... through a banking system that will profit from penalties and fees on savings accounts designed to make the average American essentially pay out of pocket for all their non-catastrophic care....while the rich can use these accounts as tax shelters to avoid paying even more of their taxes. The rich get richer... the working and the poor... well... they have an empty savings account that they can save money in here and there for care... IF THEY CAN. It'll be a cinch. Trust me, it will work. It will be HUGE!

Basically, that's all this article suggests.

Hey, they might even through in some miracle snake oil that is known to heal broken bones in 24 hours when applied topically!

And millions of conservatives will probably praise this idea. Why? Because there's a sucker born every minute.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I know what!

Let's just raid the entire public trust of Medicare and Medicaid... and hand it over to several billionaires and allow them to manage what kind of coverage THEY we all need... through a banking system that will profit from penalties and fees on savings accounts designed to make the average American essentially pay out of pocket for all their non-catastrophic care....while the rich can use these accounts as tax shelters to avoid paying even more of their taxes. The rich get richer... the working and the poor... well... they have an empty savings account that they can save money in here and there... IF THEY CAN. It'll be a cinch. Trust me, it will work. It will be HUGE! a

Basically, that's all this article suggests.

Hey, they might even through in some miracle snake oil that is known to heal broken bones in 24 hours when applied topically!

There's a sucker born every minute.

I know what! Let elderly Americans decide for themselves whether or not they want the Federal Government paying their medical bills! For those that don't, let them take back some of the tax money they paid in all those years and buy whatever plan they like! You, of course, will call that "stealing".

Your analysis of the article is viewed through socialist lenses , as usual. You ignore the idea of Americans buying insurance across international lines, greatly increasing competitiveness and driving costs down. Your answer to everything is compulsory statism.

Paying out of pocket for non-catastrophic care is a good idea, actually.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The comments are instructive.

Whose?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Whose?

The ones at the linked article.

I usually don't read what Aquila has to say on political subjects unless I want to troll him for his socialism.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I know what! Let elderly Americans decide for themselves whether or not they want the Federal Government paying their medical bills! For those that don't, let them take back some of the tax money they paid in all those years and buy whatever plan they like! You, of course, will call that "stealing".

You are aware that there are predatory insurance firms that are essentially scams, right? You'd open the elderly to be scammed. The cost for what Medicare provides on the open market is far, far more expensive. Trust me, we're trying to manage the healthcare of my mother-in-law who is 79 years old. You'd essentially subject these people to a "buyer beware" insurance market wherein scams and rip-off artists abound. You'd allow them to take out what they have already paid into the system, weakening the Medicare system itself, and allow a number of them to be ripped off on the open market.

That's not acceptable. Why? Because after thousands of elderly are ripped off and left with plans that are merely "feel good papers" where will they turn to for help? The ERs. And most are on a fixed income and cannot afford massively expensive ER bills. Guess what, all that will be handed down to the consumer through even more inflated healthcare costs. Essentially, we'll have to pay for a number of people TWICE.

They've paid into the social promise of Medicare. Why not keep our social promise to them? Why compromise it for these rich fat cats that just want to rip them off?

Your analysis of the article is viewed through socialist lenses , as usual. You ignore the idea of Americans buying insurance across international lines, greatly increasing competitiveness and driving costs down. Your answer to everything is compulsory statism.

Buying health insurance locally can be a challenge. Finding a firm that can actually deliver on what they promise can be difficult. Buying across state lines can be tricky because various states have various laws. What is legal in one state may not be legal in another. The way insurance is regulated in one state may not be the way it is regulated in another. This can cause significant confusion that results in inadequate coverage. It's not impossible to do, it's just very tricky. But if we expand this to "international" markets... you'll have an elderly couple taking out everything they paid into Medicare, shopping on the global market for a plan, and many will fall for the cheap plans that offer them the sun, moon, and stars with some grand HSA... the headquarters of the firm being some office in Nigeria. Then they will put all that money into that HSA. Then, when the company denies coverage or simply don't respond to coverage requests... where does that leave these elderly people? They will then try to use their HSA and discover, their money is gone.

Who would police the global insurance market? How is it insured? What legal recourse would an elder couple who was ripped off by some Nigerian "insurance firm" be able to recoup any losses after having purchased a worthless insurance plan or after having fallen for some insurance scam?

Why do you guys always side with the snake oil salesmen of the world?

If karma were real, y'all would have some real bad karma dude. Real bad karma.

Paying out of pocket for non-catastrophic care is a good idea, actually.

It is... IF you can. If you can't, it means that you don't schedule regular physicals and that you hold back from seeing the doctor over what appear to be minor problems. However, it costs MORE long term because not having regular physicals, exams, and treatment for minor problems only increases the odds of not being able to detect and treat a more serious condition early enough. Now it will cost four times as much to treat. And for some, late discovery of a condition might result in death.

I know you're all conservative and stuff. I know that you think anything conservative is good and anything liberal is bad. But when it comes to healthcare, we liberals got this. You guys have the downright wackiest ideas that cater to rip-off artists, banks, and billionaires. You just can't see the practical side of the dangers the every day American will face under your ideas.

Frankly, I've not seen an intelligent idea regarding healthcare proposed from a conservative yet.