Human Effort In Salvation?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

Regarding the first paragraph,

According to every Scripture that displays the character of God after the ascension, He IS a King, seated on throne, waiting for all things to be made subject to Him. There are too many Scriptural references that support this to list here. It doesn't mean that He is a King who wants His people to "wield the bolts of Jupiter against those who take His name in vain", but He is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and God of Gods who will reign in true righteousness and holiness. He is a loving King but also displays His wrath for all the world to see during the Great Tribulation and coming battle of Armaggedon. This King expects His people, who have been translated into His Kingdom, to live on this earth as He expects them to live during the Millennial Reign, in the same righteousness and holiness as He, Himself, reigns in. I'd like to get into what I call the "eternal perspective" of Christians, but I don't know if we have the space or the time.

Regarding the second paragraph,

Paul mentioned the wrath (violent passion, punishment) of God 17 times. It is wise to see the character that Jesus exhibited in His earthly ministry as He wants us to display the same character. Paul said, "Be imitators of me as I am an imitator of Christ". In my opinion, it is very unwise to dismiss the anger and wrath of God. To do so is willfully ignoring the Scripture, whether looking at a literal dispensationalist or hermaneutical approach to study. Both methods of study, in my opinion, support the display of a portion of the character of God that was shown in Noah's day, to Sodom and Gomorrah, and will be shown again in the coming Tribulation and Armaggedon.

Regarding the last paragraph,

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey..." 1 Peter 3:18-20

I believe that, through the mercy and love of God, He preached (and continues to preach) the redemptive work of God through the sacrifice of the cross to the spirits of those who weren't able to hear the Gospel preached to them before their physical death. I believe this Scripture clearly states that God allows all men to hear the Gospel, whether in the body or out of the body.

I also find it interesting that you feel your beliefs line up with hermaneutical study of the Scripture but you are using outside sources of material in order to support your beliefs.

I believe it is appropriate to study the writings of others in our search to know God as he really is, it is these writings that drove me to study scripture without preconceived conclusions.

Question: On whom do we see Jesus display His wrath when He was on earth? The answer to this question is very instructive.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I believe it is appropriate to study the writings of others in our search to know God as he really is, it is these writings that drove me to study scripture without preconceived conclusions.

Question: On whom do we see Jesus display His wrath when He was on earth? The answer to this question is very instructive.

If you are bringing in texts outside of the Bible, then you are not studying the Word in a hermaneutical context, as you stated before, but are applying a more ecclectic approach. There's nothing wrong with that method of study, but in the context of this conversation, you're moving the goalposts, so to speak. I prefer either a hermaneutical or dispensational approach to study, but that's just me.

No, the answer to your question isn't very telling about how God will be manifest as King in the future, it shows the character He displayed as Savior and as an example of how to live for all of mankind that would follow Him. It is not very instructive as to the character (at least, in full) that will be displayed when He is manifest as Lord of Lords and King of Kings. You're trying to apply the Lamb of God's character to a time where He will not be represented as that Lamb, but as the Judge of all the earth, the King of Nations, and He who sits on the White Throne of Judgment. Jesus Himself said He didn't come to judge the world, but to save the world. When He returns, He will return as the Judge.

Not always, but many times in the OT when there were Messianic prophecies that Jesus would fulfill in His earthly ministry as Messiah, there were also prophecies regarding the Millenial Reign and the Battle of Armageddon within the same passage. Contextually, when a Messianic and Millenial Prophecy were mentioned together, they should not be separated and deemed exclusive of each other. It is such a striking contrast to see the character that He embodied in the fulfillment of the Messianic Prophecies and to see that character he will embody in the fulfillment of the Millenial Reign prophecies. It's the same God fulfilling different "roles" at different times for different purposes.

If you have the time, I'd like to see how, hermaneutically, you have come to the beliefs that you have. If you feel that would take too much time, I understand.

[stephenroehm]

Also,

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Literally, vengeance (vindication or retribution) will be executed on those who don't know God and who don't obey the Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ. These people shall be punished (the execution of judgment) with everlasting (perpetual) destruction (destroyed, ruined, punished) from the presence (appearance) of the LORD and the Glory of His power.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

If you are bringing in texts outside of the Bible, then you are not studying the Word in a hermaneutical context, as you stated before, but are applying a more ecclectic approach. There's nothing wrong with that method of study, but in the context of this conversation, you're moving the goalposts, so to speak. I prefer either a hermaneutical or dispensational approach to study, but that's just me.

No, the answer to your question isn't very telling about how God will be manifest as King in the future, it shows the character He displayed as Savior and as an example of how to live for all of mankind that would follow Him. It is not very instructive as to the character (at least, in full) that will be displayed when He is manifest as Lord of Lords and King of Kings. You're trying to apply the Lamb of God's character to a time where He will not be represented as that Lamb, but as the Judge of all the earth, the King of Nations, and He who sits on the White Throne of Judgment. Jesus Himself said He didn't come to judge the world, but to save the world. When He returns, He will return as the Judge.

Not always, but many times in the OT when there were Messianic prophecies that Jesus would fulfill in His earthly ministry as Messiah, there were also prophecies regarding the Millenial Reign and the Battle of Armageddon within the same passage. Contextually, when a Messianic and Millenial Prophecy were mentioned together, they should not be separated and deemed exclusive of each other. It is such a striking contrast to see the character that He embodied in the fulfillment of the Messianic Prophecies and to see that character he will embody in the fulfillment of the Millenial Reign prophecies. It's the same God fulfilling different "roles" at different times for different purposes.

If you have the time, I'd like to see how, hermaneutically, you have come to the beliefs that you have. If you feel that would take too much time, I understand.

So as the Lamb, He commands us to forgive 7 x 70 in a day, but as the Lion He will not, himself?

I will try to address you last statement, it will take a bit of time.

[Aquila]

I believe in Predestination according to foreknowledge. Whom God foreknew... He predestined. This means, God has known who would and would not ultimately believe and obey the Gospel. It is those who have been predestined (or pre-ordained) to be saved.

Now, that doesn't mean that God essentially knew who would "save themselves" by choosing to believe and obey the Gospel. You see, I also believe in Prevenient Grace. Prevenient grace is the work of God's own Spirit in the life of the sinner. I believe there are two distinct works of grace in Prevenient Grace. First, God's Spirit may begin drawing their attention to spiritual things. God may begin to bring conviction over sin and sinful habits. God may begin to bring thoughts and questions about Jesus to surface of their minds. This is an "inner grace" that operates before salvation. Second, God arranges a moment in time to hear the preached Word. This Word can be composed of Scripture, teaching, prophesying, or a Word of Knowledge, or all of these things. This is a "outter grace". When the "inner grace" is activated by the "outter grace" true conviction for sin and a desire to be saved is activated. One CANNOT come to God without both the inner and outer workings of grace. Now the convicted sinner has had all spiritual and mental barriers removed... and he or she may freely accept and believe the Gospel.

I do believe that this Prevenient Grace can be resisted. Prevenient Grace is indeed... an undeserved grace.

When one comes to believe the Bible I believe they must experience what I call "conversion". Conversion is believing in the Gospel (death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus) and then applying that Gospel. That Gospel is applied through repenting of sin, being water baptized (born of water), and filled with the Holy Ghost (being born of Spirit).

Conversion brings several other doctrinal experiences into play. By believing in the Gospel (having faith in the cross and resurrection of Christ) one experiences Justification. Justification is an imputed spiritual state wherein the convert is reckoned to be perfectly sinless before God on Christ’s account. This allows the convert to approach the throne of grace to confess and repent of sin. When one confesses and repents of sin, they not only turn from sin but they also turn towards God. The first step of obedience is water baptism. So, initial repentance and water baptism are inseparably linked. This is the first step along the road to Sanctification. Sanctification is obedience leading to Christlikeness. Next the convert receives the Holy Ghost. Upon receiving the Holy Ghost the converts spirit becomes one spirit with the Lord’s Spirit. This brings spiritual Regeneration. Having experienced Justification, Sanctification, and Regeneration the new saint of God can claim Adoption. NOW they are a child of God.

Sanctification continues throughout the Christians life as they grow in knowledge and grace. As they grow in knowledge and grace they will become more and more Christlike. When the saint of God sins they must remember something important. A believer is not a sinner who is made a saint by occasional grace. A believer is a saint who is beset by occasional sin. This means that sin cannot remain a lifestyle of the saint of God. A saint of God will have no peace until they confess and repent of their sins. If one disregards God and continues in sin they are in “rebellion”. God will begin by increasing conviction. If this is resisted the backslidden believer might sin to the point of their conscience being seared. Now conviction will not work. At this point God may send chastening judgments. If unheeded… God will turn the believer over to a reprobate mind and said believer become apostate will be lost. And here’s the terrifying element… once one becomes a reprobate apostate… they cannot be saved again.

Just as sanctification is a process… so too is losing one’s salvation. A person has to literally set themselves against God to lose their salvation. If they heed conviction or even God’s chastening judgments… they will be saved. Remember, even under chastening, the backslidden believer is a child of God. Because God only chastens His children.

As stated before, sanctification is the life long journey into Christlikeness. A person may not attain absolute perfection in this life. What I mean is that a saint may not be entirely “sinless”. However, the saint of God will increasingly “sin less” as they learn to approach the throne of grace for both forgiveness and spiritual strength. Like any son or daughter, as they grow in sanctification they will increasingly reflect the likeness of their father, Christ.

In the end, the saint of God will experience what is known as Glorification. Glorification will take place when the Lord Jesus returns. Those who have died will be raised from the dead in a Glorified state. Those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will be changed, in the twinkling of an eye into their Glorified state. In this glorified state the saint of God will experience the fullness of sinless Christlikeness.

[stephenroehm]

Great post.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe in Predestination according to foreknowledge. Whom God foreknew... He predestined.

Who exactly did God 'foreknew'?

hint; Paul tells us exactly who 'God foreknew'...