Watchman Nee

Dedicated Mind · #1 12-21-2010, 03:17 PM

What is your opinion of Watchman Nee's teaching in Spiritual Man concerning the dividing of soul and spirit? I believe he teaches if we deny our soul desires we can live in the spirit. Anyone have any insight. His writings can be read for free at http://www.lsm.org.

Socialite · #2 12-21-2010, 03:21 PM

While a fan overall of Watchman Nee, his charismatic ideas, like above, are worthy of discussion, but I think definitely stretched from the reading of the Text to make his case. I find this common in Charismatic circles (dogmatic, radical teaching taken from ambiguous parts of scripture).

Maybe you can be more specific with the forum by offering an excerpt?

Dedicated Mind · #3 12-21-2010, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

While a fan overall of Watchman Nee, his charismatic ideas, like above, are worthy of discussion, but I think definitely stretched from the reading of the Text to make his case. I find this common in Charismatic circles (dogmatic, radical teaching taken from ambiguous parts of scripture).

Maybe you can be more specific with the forum by offering an excerpt?

I don't have a specific quote in mind. I believe he teaches from hebrews 4:12 where it says the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword dividing asunder the soul and spirit. He uses that verse to say we need to divide our soul and spirit, where the soul is the fleshly desires and the spirit our Godly desires. We need to break the soul and release the spirit. I was hoping someone had some more insight into this teaching.

mfblume · #4 12-21-2010, 11:30 PM

I have long agreed with Nee on spirit, soul and body. I think he had incredible insight and revelation on the subject. I taught THE SPIRITUAL MAN in some churches over a period of weeks.

mfblume · #5 12-21-2010, 11:36 PM

Nee said that the human spirit and human soul do need to be divided, and that Heb 4:12 says it is the goal of the sword of the Spirit, the Word. Many think they are one and the same faculty within us, but they are not.

But it's not just soulish desires that are the reason for this need of division, but the overall natural inclinations that stem from the soul. For example, the soul is affected by the outward world around us, and can hinder our spirits if they are not divided from our spirits. It made me think of how some people are roller coaster sorts of people, where the outward influences from the world affect their spirituality when they should not. Nee once said that a rainy and miserable day outside can actually cause people to not worship the Lord together as much as the would should the day be sunny and nice. This of course is due to carnality.

He even taught how the early church did not have all the fancy musical instruments we have today. Imagine church services without good music and good singers, with a cloudy and rainy day outside. Then imagine church with beautiful professional music and awesome singers in a bright sunny day. Carnality would cause many believers to hardly worship the Lord in the rainy, lack of music setting, whereas they would likely praise more intensely in the nice setting. If the soul was separated from the spirit, this would not be the case. The spirit would be uninhibited from worshiping regardless of the influences from the surroundings.

The soul drags the spirit down if they are not separated. I think Nee was spot-on on this issue.

Socialite · #6 12-22-2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Nee said that the human spirit and human soul do need to be divided, and that Heb 4:12 says it is the goal of the sword of the Spirit, the Word. Many think they are one and the same faculty within us, but they are not.

But it's not just soulish desires that are the reason for this need of division, but the overall natural inclinations that stem from the soul. For example, the soul is affected by the outward world around us, and can hinder our spirits if they are not divided from our spirits. It made me think of how some people are roller coaster sorts of people, where the outward influences from the world affect their spirituality when they should not. Nee once said that a rainy and miserable day outside can actually cause people to not worship the Lord together as much as the would should the day be sunny and nice. This of course is due to carnality.

He even taught how the early church did not have all the fancy musical instruments we have today. Imagine church services without good music and good singers, with a cloudy and rainy day outside. Then imagine church with beautiful professional music and awesome singers in a bright sunny day. Carnality would cause many believers to hardly worship the Lord in the rainy, lack of music setting, whereas they would likely praise more intensely in the nice setting. If the soul was separated from the spirit, this would not be the case. The spirit would be uninhibited from worshiping regardless of the influences from the surroundings.

The soul drags the spirit down if they are not separated. I think Nee was spot-on on this issue.

That's some radical deduction, Blume.

Most of us believe in a tri-partite man (Psyche, Soma, Pneuma). But they are inseparable. Sure, we can refer to them separately, but they aren't really separable. This issue of the soul harming the spirit is tricky. I have no problem if you choose to see it that way, but I certainly think it's a stretched deduction.

scotty · #7 12-22-2010, 10:02 AM

Do we have a spirit outside of God ? If the soul is the carnal essence of man then what is our spirit ? When we recieve the Holy Ghost, Gods spirit within us, does it take the place of our spirit ? Co-exist with it ?

I guess I have always thought that it was just the soul in man until filled with "a" spirit as we do not have an actual spirit ourselves. If it is the soul that needs saving then what of the spirit ?

But I'm not very learned in this area, just rambling.

tbpew · #8 12-22-2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Nee said that the human spirit and human soul do need to be divided, and that Heb 4:12 says it is the goal of the sword of the Spirit, the Word. Many think they are one and the same faculty within us, but they are not.

But it's not just soulish desires that are the reason for this need of division, but the overall natural inclinations that stem from the soul. For example, the soul is affected by the outward world around us, and can hinder our spirits if they are not divided from our spirits. It made me think of how some people are roller coaster sorts of people, where the outward influences from the world affect their spirituality when they should not. Nee once said that a rainy and miserable day outside can actually cause people to not worship the Lord together as much as the would should the day be sunny and nice. This of course is due to carnality.

He even taught how the early church did not have all the fancy musical instruments we have today. Imagine church services without good music and good singers, with a cloudy and rainy day outside. Then imagine church with beautiful professional music and awesome singers in a bright sunny day. Carnality would cause many believers to hardly worship the Lord in the rainy, lack of music setting, whereas they would likely praise more intensely in the nice setting. If the soul was separated from the spirit, this would not be the case. The spirit would be uninhibited from worshiping regardless of the influences from the surroundings.

The soul drags the spirit down if they are not separated. I think Nee was spot-on on this issue.

It seems also that carnal-mindedness vs. spiritual-mindedness could be discussed in the exact same scenario...without creating a new need to imagine some unimaginable scene where soul is seperated from spirit.

Those of us who have been delivered from the former captivity of the body of sin, still must reconcile ourselves dead to the influences of being raised under this former taskmaster. The word of God is able to accomplish this miraculous transformation, including the efficacious work of death concerning any unbelief that still impacts our journey from captivity to eternal life.

IMO, the need to seperate soul and spirit is based on discerning that our life choices are result from acting out (by the governance of) our own will after consideration of the witness of life and death that surrounds us.

Seperating for seperating's sake would not be inherently edifying or serving of any particular understanding. But when seperation is provided as a means to establish distinction of source and respondent, an opportunity to see the stimulus and the response is made clear.

I do not see the soul as a drag on the spirit, but rather the need is to understand how our will (motive) is "acting out" in the midst of life and death being set before us.

Sabby · #9 12-22-2010, 10:26 AM

I read a book he wrote about spiritual authority so long ago I've forgotten the name of it. Nee described the Father/Son relationship in terms well understood by trinitarians from Phil 2 (the son emptied himself to come to earth, etc) but overall, I thought it dealt with the issue very well.

The soul is separate from the spirit as the body is. (The only thing keeping it all together is the spirit of man, the candle of the LORD)
The soul contains the intellect and emotions that are the primary opponents of the things of the Spirit. We don't have born again emotions or thinking, but we are born again of the spirit. We all know people "born again" of the Spirit that still battle in "soulish" areas like negative emotions, unclean thoughts, etc. This is why it is imperative that pentecostals learn the Word, drink its milk and eat its meat and let it begin to form an intellectual platform our spirits can thrive in, imo.

mfblume · #10 12-22-2010, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbpew

It seems also that carnal-mindedness vs. spiritual-mindedness could be discussed in the exact same scenario...without creating a new need to imagine some unimaginable scene where soul is seperated from spirit.

Imagine? What does Heb 4:12 mean when it speaks of dividing the soul and spirit, then? It is scripture.

Hebrews 4:12 KJV For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I see no problem with what Nee noted. We are spirit, soul and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV (23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And is it not true that we can battle within ourselves in regards to whether or not we will go after the flesh or the things of the Spirit?

Galatians 5:16-17 KJV This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

A person has to find out biblically what the soul and spirit are. Everywhere we read mention of spirit, it is the contact faculty in our lives for the things of the spiritual. No brainer -- spirit - spirit-UAL. And SOUL is synonymous with LIFE, and is what Christ said we must LOSE in order to gain it again.

Before one dismisses this concept, check throughout the word the useage of soul versus spirit, and see if one can find a difference. I have a list of verses that show their uses and there is a marked difference. And the sou is what needs saving or deliverance.

The soul is the emotions intellect and will, whereas the spirit is our conscience, communion with God and our intuition with which we "hear" from God. All other creatures are called souls -- as only humans have a human spirit.

John 3:6 KJV That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice that the human spirit is born of God's Spirit.

When one studies all the references where soul and spirit are used in scripture, it is not a stretch at all. Simply because this has not been widely heard does not mean it is error.