NT Ministry an Extension of the OT Priesthood?

[Pneuman]

OK, this has been bugging me for months, so I thought I would put it out there for dialog. Please remember, this is my opinion, a direct representation of my experience. I welcome comments of both those who agree and disagree. Please note, I am more likely to consider your position if your response is polite and godly.

Question: Is the New Testament Ministry an Extension of the Old Testament Priesthood?

Here is the quick version: When Jesus died the veil that concealed the most holy place was torn from top to bottom signifying our ability to enter directly into God's presence without the need of the priesthood. Also, Jesus is now our high priest therefore eliminating the need to have a man to mediate our relationship with God; Jesus is our mediator! We also know that when Jesus came He lead captivity captive and gave gifts to men ... what we know as the five-fold ministry, for the purpose of:

- Perfecting the saints (to teach)
- The work of the ministry (to serve)
- For the edifying of the body (to feed)

Done right, this alone will bring us into the unity of the faith, and keep us from being confused by other doctrines that are opposed to the "truth."

In addition, the ministry is supposed to be the most humble, the least among us. Jesus compares the ministry to Himself, who gave His life for His sheep.

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mt. 20:25-28)"

We also know that the ministry is not to be "lords over God's heritage (I Peter 5)." The word "lord" means to control, subjugate, exercise dominion over.

That being established, where do "ministers" see that they have a scriptural right to interpret scriptures and hold people accountable to their interpretations? I have heard it preached more than once that it is the ministry's job to make the difference between the holy and the unholy (this was the job of the OT priesthood), and that the preacher is the "watchman on the wall" and their job is to watch over us and make sure we comply or hearken (also OT priesthood, Jer. 6:17, etc.).

The immediate example that comes to mind (for a starting place anyway) is the way some in the NT ministry tend to interpret scriptures that are intentionally vague in any way they please. For example:

Romans 12:2: Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

2 Corinthians 6:17: Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,

2 Corinthians 6:14: Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Proverbs 4:23: Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life.

Now, these are all beautiful scriptures, but I personally don't believe it is the NT ministry's job to make people comply to what they interpret these scriptures to mean. There is a reason God did not define "unclean thing" and "unequally yoked" and .... ! We are to internalize these scriptures so when we have to make choices every day we have the ability to pray and discern ourselves what is the right choice. When another person (ministry or not) makes all these choices for us, it leaves us with the inability to discern these things for ourselves (at least to some degree) and at the very least places our ability to get to heaven in the hands of men. There are so many doctrines out there that are interpretations of what men think the scripture should mean, and when the Bible says that adding and subtracting to the scripture is a heaven and hell issue, I would fear! I shudder when I hear somebody teach that I Corinthians 11 means a woman can't cut her hair and get to heaven, when this scripture says no such thing. I am still looking for the word skirt in Deut. 22:5 and wondering why a church that would never go to the world for any other doctrine claims their teaching that a woman should wear a skirt is correct because traditionally in "Western Culture" (i.e., the world) this was what women did.

So, I guess this begs the question, how much interpretation should the ministry do, biblically, and are these charges to the OT priesthood still in effect today?

Let the fireworks begin!

Thanks,
pneuman

[obriencp]

^ I like this guy

he raises valid points. I'm gonna stay out of this one for a bit so I don't come off as bashing, lol.

[n david]

Good thoughts.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pneuman

Question: Is the New Testament Ministry an Extension of the Old Testament Priesthood?

Here is the quick version: When Jesus died the veil that concealed the most holy place was torn from top to bottom signifying our ability to enter directly into God's presence without the need of the priesthood. Also, Jesus is now our high priest therefore eliminating the need to have a man to mediate our relationship with God; Jesus is our mediator! We also know that when Jesus came He lead captivity captive and gave gifts to men ... what we know as the five-fold ministry, for the purpose of:

- Perfecting the saints (to teach)
- The work of the ministry (to serve)
- For the edifying of the body (to feed)

Done right, this alone will bring us into the unity of the faith, and keep us from being confused by other doctrines that are opposed to the "truth."

I have a question for you: Why did Paul write what he did about the 5-fold ministry?

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"

We know the role of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists and Teachers, but what did Paul have in mind for the role and responsibility of Pastors?

I know some don't like Strong's, but here's it's word for Pastor:

poimén: a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμήν, ένος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: poimén
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mane')
Short Definition: a shepherd
Definition: a shepherd; hence met: of the feeder, protector, and ruler of a flock of men.

HELPS Word-studies
4166 poimḗn – properly, a shepherd ("pastor" in Latin); (figuratively) someone who the Lord raises up to care for the total well-being of His flock (the people of the Lord).

Source Link

Originally Posted by Pneuman

We also know that the ministry is not to be "lords over God's heritage (I Peter 5)." The word "lord" means to control, subjugate, exercise dominion over.

I agree. There are many Pastors I've met, both in Pentecostal and other denominations, who feel they are indeed "lords" over their congregation.

Originally Posted by Pneuman

That being established, where do "ministers" see that they have a scriptural right to interpret scriptures and hold people accountable to their interpretations? I have heard it preached more than once that it is the ministry's job to make the difference between the holy and the unholy (this was the job of the OT priesthood), and that the preacher is the "watchman on the wall" and their job is to watch over us and make sure we comply or hearken (also OT priesthood, Jer. 6:17, etc.).

Again, we would need to examine what Paul meant by "Pastors" and the role and responsibility. I've also heard that Pastors are "watchmen" who will have to "give account" for the souls of their congregations.

I do believe the 5-fold ministry included a Pastor or Shepherd for a reason. While a Pastor is not to lord over people, I believe his role can partly be found in 2 Timothy 4:2: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

[Pneuman]

Originally Posted by n david

I have a question for you: Why did Paul write what he did about the 5-fold ministry?

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"

We know the role of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists and Teachers, but what did Paul have in mind for the role and responsibility of Pastors?

I know some don't like Strong's, but here's it's word for Pastor:

poimén: a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμήν, ένος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: poimén
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mane')
Short Definition: a shepherd
Definition: a shepherd; hence met: of the feeder, protector, and ruler of a flock of men.

HELPS Word-studies
4166 poimḗn – properly, a shepherd ("pastor" in Latin); (figuratively) someone who the Lord raises up to care for the total well-being of His flock (the people of the Lord).

Source Link


I agree. There are many Pastors I've met, both in Pentecostal and other denominations, who feel they are indeed "lords" over their congregation.


Again, we would need to examine what Paul meant by "Pastors" and the role and responsibility. I've also heard that Pastors are "watchmen" who will have to "give account" for the souls of their congregations.

I do believe the 5-fold ministry included a Pastor or Shepherd for a reason. While a Pastor is not to lord over people, I believe his role can partly be found in 2 Timothy 4:2: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

Good question N David! I was hoping to get a dialog more about the OT priesthood vs. the NT ministry, but how to resolve your question. How can a Pastor be both a "ruler" and yet not exercise "control?" Seems like a very careful line to walk. I am not sure there is a definitive answer, but like in many places in God's word He creates balance in us by giving us scriptures that help to create that balance.

But does this mean it is OK to preach against anything that I personally see as wrong if I am leading the flock? Should I preach my congregation into hell for going to a bowling alley? Should I create barriers for the people I lead that set the fence far enough back so that I know they won't accidentally fall in, or is it each persons responsibility to have their own walk with God?

Hebrews 13:17 is a tricky scripture, and again has been used to prove that the Pastor should "rule" over his congregation because they are going to give an account of our lives. When the passage as "as one" it indicates that the Pastor will not give an account, but that we should lives as though he were going to do so. Why? Because it is profitable for us (not for him). Also, I don't see any indication from the NT that these people who were in the "rule," whoever they were, had the ability or the inclination to give extra biblical interpretations of the scripture and hold their congregation accountable to measures that are not biblical. Once again, the Bible is purposely vague.

How about another couple scriptures to temper our study into this question:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you (Deut 4:2)."

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar (Prov. 30:6)."

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (II Pet. 1:21)."

When does "adding" become adding? We look at Trinitarians and say they are adding to the scripture because the Bible does not say God is a Trinity (and rightly so). Yet they look at us and say we don the same thing by teaching "Holiness Standards," also not found in the scripture, and yet we go to great lengths to defend something that is clearly not in the Bible. I have yet to find anybody, preacher, theologian or "laity," that can show me one scripture that links standards of dress to holiness. In my 20+ times of reading through the Bible, and other countless hours of study, I can't seem to locate it either. If our teachings were only what we could get from the scripture, without interpretation, would we still espouse these doctrines? I say not!

Anyway, good thoughts N David. Do you think I am out of bounds here?

[Godsdrummer]

Pneuman

No I don't think you are off the wall, I do think you may even fall short what scripture teaches concerning this subject.
Food or thought, to those of you that want to put a pastor in a position not found in scripture.
Ephesians 4 does not speak of the five fold ministry as offices. It speaks of them as gifts given to the church, and should all be at work in the local assembly.
You left out a couple of passages, while Matt. 20:25-28 is a good one more can be said from that passage. But lets look at another one. Matt 23, Christ
goes so far as to say, don't let anyone give you a title.
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Note a Rabbi is a teacher, Christ is our master, and we are all brethren, Nether be called father, for one is our father, which is in heaven, neither be called master, for one is our master, even Christ.
Further there is not one place in NT that a pastor was placed over the local assembly. There were elders, and bishops, plural being the significant term here. Not one. These were not offices as our traditions would have us believe.
And finally that being said, Hebrews 13:17, the word for Obey in the Greed here means by persuasion. This is a completely different word than the Greed word translated obey in Ephesians where Paul says "children obey you parents".
That being said, the writer of Hebrews also said, "those" again plural, that have rule. Now if the writer was meaning what many twist this passage to mean, why did he not say "obey them that spoke the word to you" earlier in the same chapter? Instead he said "remember them".

[Godsdrummer]

This link if I can make it work can be down loaded and printed off, goes into great detail on this subject. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1812...1067694905052/
This link will open my facebook page then you can click the link which will take you to the study.
I know it seems like a pain but it is well worth the read for those that want more understanding of this subject.

[Pneuman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

This link if I can make it work can be down loaded and printed off, goes into great detail on this subject. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1812...1067694905052/
This link will open my facebook page then you can click the link which will take you to the study.
I know it seems like a pain but it is well worth the read for those that want more understanding of this subject.

Thanks for your thoughts. I downloaded and will chew on it over the next couple of weeks.

[Lafon]

Question: Is the New Testament Ministry an Extension of the Old Testament Priesthood?

I think it can best be described as a combination of OT Priesthood and Greek/Roman Sophists tradition adopted during the formative era of the RCC; a tradition that was not abandoned by the contemporary Apostolic Church "forefathers" but by its continuation has not been venerated to the point of being considered "holy."

[votivesoul]

The short answer is no, the New Testament priesthood is not a continuation of the Old Testament priesthood.

For one, we aren't priests after the order of Aaron, son of Levi. We are priests after the order of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Judah, who was and is forever a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

It is not possible for us to be Levites, unless we are in fact Jewish descendants of that tribe. Not being so, we are automatically, by the Old Testament laws governing the Leviticval priesthood, disqualified.

They offered physical sacrifices, we spiritual. The whole of Hebrews is to convince the people of God that we have a better, different priesthood centered in the Messiah, not in the Old Testament tribe of Levi.