Divided Law?

[Arphaxad]

Who divided the Mosaic law into parts (ceremonial, moral, civil, dietary, and whatever else categories there are)? When Paul writes ..."for you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14, and other places ,Galations esp., it doesn't seem like to me that he is saying "except this part, and this part", but that he is refering to the whole law.

[mfblume]

Agreed. The question arises when people ask if that means they are not under the law to not kill, etc., and people use this division to propose Deut 22:5.

[A.W. Bowman]

Mike, as usual, you point out the essential flaw.

A few comments of my own:

It seems as though most folks, especially those who hold spiritual leadership roles within the church, love to manipulate the scriptures for their own purposes. What they don’t know or understand, they make up stuff about what they think the confusing scriptures mean, or more often than not, what they want it to mean (1 Timothy 1:7 & 2 Peter 2:1; 3:16). So, what does man do? He freely diminishes from some scriptures and then selectively adds to others (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32). Why?

The answer is quite simple, really. It is the expression of spiritual arrogance, personal pride, an effort to gain the approval of men (a substitute for the approval of God), the need to right in one’s own eyes (self justification), and to have influence (power/control) over others (Matthew 23).

Once man took upon himself the authority to materially alter, misinterpret, and misapply the word of God in order to support his own agendas, the natural result occurred: Confusion, dissension, and division. If the Law (Torah, God’s instructions in rightness) has no authority in your life, then you have become your own god and there is no longer a need for Jesus - at all!

Consider (and understanding the context is very important):

1. The biblical definition of sin is the transgression of the (Old Covenant) Law. 1 John 3:4
2. Without the Law, sin is not even imputed to man, and he remains free of judgment. Romans 5:13
3. It is by our faith that we establish [validity of] the Law. Romans 3:31, also see Genesis 26:1-6 for the foundation of this doctrine.

So, what was nailed to the cross? The ordinances of the Law (Colossians 2:14), not the Law it’s self, so that we might be found in the righteousness of Christ and not of ourselves. For Jesus even kept the ordinances of the Law, and then paid the penalty for our transgressions of those ordinances.

As a final note: Have you ever witnessed a preacher who teaches that the law has been abolished, dead, and no longer in affect (contrary to Matthew 5:17), and then appeal to the law (actually, one of the ordinances nailed to the cross) in order to compel compliance to some edict he has given? But then, many preachers/teachers do not understand the difference between a biblical commandment, law, ordinance, statute or instruction, or how they relate to one another and to mankind.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

Who divided the Mosaic law into parts (ceremonial, moral, civil, dietary, and whatever else categories there are)? When Paul writes ..."for you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14, and other places ,Galations esp., it doesn't seem like to me that he is saying "except this part, and this part", but that he is refering to the whole law.

You are correct: There is no division within the context of the 'Law'. There is, however, specific areas of application.

Here is my favorite example of why the man made divisions often times lead to very wrong conclusions.

A Kohen (priest) must not enter the Temple intoxicated Lev. 10:9

Are we not of a royal priesthood, and is not our bodies a holy temple? Would it be appropriate then for us to get 'intoxicated' and enter into a Bible study and prayer?

Does this 'ceremonial law" apply to the New Covenant saints? Of course it does, in the N.T. context. But, we are also instructed in other places not to get drunk under any condition. The scriptures actually do hang together.

May your studies be fruitful.

[Sam]

My opinion on law and grace or the old and new testaments/covenants:

Jesus lived according to the Law (what we call the Mosaic law which included the moral, civil, and ceremonial) but He was guilty of breaking the law as interpreted and applied by the legalists and holiness people of His day. They had added to the law by their interpretations and traditions.

Jesus and Paul taught that if we love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and body and if we love our neighbor as ourselves we have obeyed and hae fulfilled the (spirit of) the law. Reference Matthew 22:37-40; Mark 12:28-34; Romans 13:8-10

The Law shows us our sinfulness, that we have sinned and come short (missed the mark) of the glory of God. It shows us our need for Jesus. When we realize we are sinners and call on Him for mercy, He justifies us (declares us righteous) and not only that He imputes the righteousness of Christ to us. We have the righteousness of Christ. We are as righteous in God's eyes as His own Son. When He looks at us, God no longer sees us in our sins but sees us in His Son.

All of the law, civil, moral, ritual is the Old Covenant which has passed away and we are now under a new Covenant/Testament. The 10 commandments were part of the old covenant and are not binding on us. Neither are the laws about animal sacrifice, sabbath days, feast days, tithing, circumcision, etc. If we still want to tithe, keep sabbaths, keep kosher, practice dress code, etc. we can if we want to according to Romans chapter 14 but we cannot judge anyone else or condemn anyone else if they do not want to do any or all of that stuff. Those whose faith is weak will set up rules. Those whose faith is stronger will trust in Christ's grace and mercy to forgive and transgressions or omissions, will trust in His blood to cleanse from any failures, and will trust in His power to live victoriously.

Since we are not under the 10 commandments, does that mean we can now disrespect parents, commit adultery, worship idols, lie, steal, etc.? No, all the laws contained within the 10 commandments, except for the sabbath, are covered by New Testament principles found in the teachings of Jesus and writings of the NT writers. Our sabbath is Jesus. We no longer rest from our daily labor but we rest from our religious labor of trying to be good enough or trying to do enough good stuff to make it. We cease from our works and rest on His finished work. Reference Matthew 11:28-30, Acts 15:1-29, Colossians 2:6-23 and Hebrews chapters 3 and 4

remember, this is the opinion of a greasy grace, easy believism, weak on the message, one-stepper PCI Bapticostal

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

All of the law, civil, moral, ritual is the Old Covenant which has passed away and we are now under a new Covenant/Testament. The 10 commandments were part of the old covenant and are not binding on us. Neither are the laws about animal sacrifice, sabbath days, feast days, tithing, circumcision, etc. If we still want to tithe, keep sabbaths, keep kosher, practice dress code, etc. we can if we want to according to Romans chapter 14 but we cannot judge anyone else or condemn anyone else if they do not want to do any or all of that stuff. Those whose faith is weak will set up rules. Those whose faith is stronger will trust in Christ's grace and mercy to forgive and transgressions or omissions, will trust in His blood to cleanse from any failures, and will trust in His power to live victoriously.

Amen and amen. Paul taught that the entire law was a schoolmaster to bring Israel to Christ. Once Christ came, Israel was no longer under that law. Paul also said we are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Law was self being instructed to make self righteous. And that can never happen. So, law came to show us sin. It did not provide the cleansing from that sin, though. Law was like a highway no man could take and reach righteousness. Grace is a totally different highway and succeeds in getting us to righteousness.

Romans 3:20-22 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Those under Law are under a curse. Paul said that Law, not a twisted version of Law, was impossible to keep. He said that those who try to keep law by default are violators of Law since only those who perfectly keep it are counted righteous. That means Paul believed no one could perfectly keep it.

Galatians 3:10-13 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Peter also knew Mosaic Law, not a distortion of it, was impossible to keep.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Peter referred to the Judaizers' demands for circumcision, and Peter knew that if one holds ON TENET OF LAW, like circumcision, one is a debtor to keep the entire law, which no one can.

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The truth is that the righteous life that Law tried but could not provide man is provided for us by faith, which is why Grace fulfills the righteousness of the Law without us resorting to Law to attain it.

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Living after the flesh in the context Paul used it is actually using law-keeping to please God, and that cannot be done.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

. . . Paul also said we are not under law but under grace. . . .

Peter also knew Mosaic Law, not a distortion of it, was impossible to keep. . . .

Living after the flesh in the context Paul used it is actually using law-keeping to please God, and that cannot be done.

That's all well and good. But, is it not true that there are certain things that we actually should do, and some things we should not do? Of course there are. But: what are they? This is where the division of the law is usually mentioned as an explanation of why we, even today, must not murder, but nobody (even God) cares if we eat shellfish anymore.

Is the Bible really of any help in determining a moral code?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

That's all well and good. But, is it not true that there are certain things that we actually should do, and some things we should not do? Of course there are. But: what are they? This is where the division of the law is usually mentioned as an explanation of why we, even today, must not murder, but nobody (even God) cares if we eat shellfish anymore.

Is the Bible really of any help in determining a moral code?

The issue between what we cannot do and what we cannot do is understood by determining what makes us righteous and what does not. Law tried to make man righteous. That cannot be done on our own, but at the same time we cooperate with the Spirit as He empowers us!

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The issue between what we cannot do and what we cannot do is understood by determining what makes us righteous and what does not. Law tried to make man righteous. That cannot be done on our own, but at the same time we cooperate with the Spirit as He empowers us!

Yes, I love it!

[A.W. Bowman]

Next step:

There is a great veil of tradition and simple misunderstanding that is draped over the western Gentile church of today. We seem to think that the Law of God no longer exists, yet we will pull it out whenever it suits our purpose. Just a few simple questions dispel that myth.

If the law was abolished (which Jesus denied), then on what bases does anyone need to be ‘saved’ today? Because they are sinners? According to what standard? Without the law, sin is not imputed to mankind (to stand guilty of a transgression). (See the scriptural references in my post above.)

Most folks, when they read Romans, Galatians and other passages that stand opposed to the Law, they fully miss the content as well as the context of the scripture. Terms like ‘justification’ are not only misunderstood, but miss applied. That is, the New Testament scriptures clearly teach against seeking after the “works of the law” in order to achieve one’s justification and right standing, or as a means to gain (to earn) their acceptance by God. Without question, this approach is doomed to failure. Not because there was anything wrong or deficient in the original Mt. Sinai covenant, but because of the inherent failure in the nature of men to keep the covenant (another subject).

Even so-

1 John 5:3 (KJV)
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

With the right heart and purpose in mind, the commandments of God are ‘do-able’. If we love God, we will obey Him. When we fail, and we all shall fail from time to time, we can find forgiveness and reinstatement before God because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We do not have to live in the fear of the judgment of a righteous God, because we have had the righteousness of Christ applied to us via His blood sacrifice.

In the western church, however, we have been taught that any reference to ‘the Law’ is to seek justification before God by following after the works of the Law, and the scriptural mandates concerning the purpose and correct application of the Law are all but fully missed. A true disciple of Jesus Christ does not attempt to earn his salvation by the works of the Law, but he does obey the word of God out of love (If you love me, obey me, and not being hearers only, but also doers of the word).

As examples: Anyone who does not murder or lie is, by definition, a Law Keeper of ‘negative’ laws. Anyone who loves God and honors their father and mother are, definition, Law Keepers of ‘positive’ laws. If the Commandments of God are eliminate, then where is the requirement to love God or your neighbor?

The following is a representative listing of scripture that must be accommodated in the doctrine that the law of God has been put to no effect, made null and void, done away with, abolished.

Jeremiah 31:33 (KJV)
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Also see Hebrews 8:10 for the N.T. rendering. What law was God referring to?)

Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Please recall the biblical definition of sin.)

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (The commandments married with the doctrines of Christ.)

Revelation 14:12 (KJV)
Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Commandments and faith working together.)

Revelation 22:14 (KJV)
Blessed are they that do his [God’s] commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Being ‘born again’ is more than a simple change in one’s state of mind or speaking in tongues, it is a change in world view and relationship as well.)

I apologize for quoting all of these verses (remember to read them within their original context), but I think the referenced verses in my original post were either over looked or not carefully considered. Yet, as one can see, there is still a place for the Law in the life of both sinners and saints alike. Why? Because the commandments, laws, ordinances, statutes, and instruction given to us by God reveal to us something of both His nature and His essence.

A final note: Most teachers of the law are 1 Timothy 1:7 teachers, and not verse 8 teachers.

7. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8. But we know that the law [is]good, if a man use it lawfully; …”

The problem is that so few know how to use (teach and apply) the law lawfully. While the majority still refuse to relinquish their Greek mindset, and acquire the mind of Christ. (A task I am still working on!)

May all of our studies be fruitful.