Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The D.A.'s Office
Facebook

Notices

The D.A.'s Office The views expressed in this forum are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of AFF or the Admin of AFF.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:42 AM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Writ?

Before I continue any further, let me pre-empt this post w/ the following disclaimers

Quote:
1. I believe the Bible to be infallible and the inerrant God-breathed Word of God.
2. I believe that the epistles are canon, apply today and are beneficial to the Church
3. Paul is my favorite NT writer and believe everything he did, spoke and wrote are the actions of a Spirit-filled Christian. I am enamored w/ his style and simplicity. His 3 basic themes of faith, hope and love permeate and are interwoven masterfully in his writings.
Now here goes ….

Paul, like other Jewish Christians, considered the Torah and the words of the prophets to be Scripture. As a religious scholar who considered himself as once being the chief of the Pharisees and who studied under the feet of Gamaliel … writes to his son in the Lord, Timothy …


16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Even the most novice theologian will tell you that when he wrote these words he did so as advice to a young pastor and mentee in the Lord.

And I believe … it’s safe to say that he did not believe this correspondence to be the Scripture described in this passage. I think it’s also safe to say that the other Hebraic epistle writers did not know that their writings would be compiled into a second or New Testament to be added to what they considered Scripture (the OT?).

Considering the nature of these letters that are targeted to specific churches and/or individuals … must we keep the purpose and audience of these letters into account when we are rightly dividing the Word of God.

1. For example, as a pastor/overseer of many works in Asia and Europe we see Paul addressing various issues and topics that are unique to a particular church region.

It’s believed that other letters ( possibly 4 total?) were written to the church in Corinth … yet we have only 2 in our bibles.

Were the other letters not inspired by the Spirit of God? If we were to uncover them today would we need to add them to our Bibles?

Undoubtedly, there is valuable and God inspired commandments, counsel and modern-day applications found in Paul’s writings to these specific churches. We get invaluable insight to the Apostles doctrine of the 1st century church from these epistles also.

Yet there are instances that we find traces in these letters that may not be directly from the lips of God.

2. Paul, at times, gives his personal opinion …

In the following two verses quoted as examples, Paul admits he was not inspired in giving some of his advice. He states that had "given his (personal) opinion" and had expressed what he personally "thought to be good".

Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord;
but I give my opinion.....

Quote:
I think then that this is good for the present distress,
{I say}, that {it is} good for a man to remain as he is.
1 Corin. 7:25/26

3 There are times we see him express personal issues he has w/ others … along w/ open personal rebukes.

Quote:
Galatians 2:11 But when Cephas 1 came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong. 2:12 Until 4 certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this 5 and separated himself 6 because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision. 7 2:13 And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
4. Paul changing his mind …

In 2 Cor 2:5-11

Paul wrote to instruct the Corinthians on what to do about the particular man who had previously caused him so much trouble but now had repented. Paul instructed the Corinthians to forgive him and receive him back.

In another instance had cast away Mark, as being a frivolous and irresponsible young man, but years later he calls for him believing he is useful to the ministry.

5. Paul using the letters to defend himself against those who opposed and criticized him

Ex: In Second Corinthians

10:1-13:10
In this section, Paul turns his attention to the minority that still opposes him. The tone of the letter changes from conciliatory to confrontational.

10:1-18
Paul defends himself against the charges that he is timid in person but bold when he writes to them and that he lives "according to the flesh." He explains that unlike his opponents, he and his colleagues do not compare themselves, commend themselves or boast beyond limits.

11:1-12:13
Paul unwillingly compares himself to his opponents, the "super-apostles," in order to prove that he is not their inferior. He does so with great reservation because he believes that a criterion of apostolic ministry is "weakness," which is incompatible with such self-assertion. He explains how God gave him a "thorn in the flesh" to prevent him from becoming conceited after having heard inexpressible things while caught up in the third heaven.

c. 12:14-13:10
Paul announces to the Corinthians that he is soon coming again to Corinth, and he defends himself against the charge that he exploits the Corinthian during his visits. Paul tells them that he does not want to find sin in the church when he comes and warns his remaining opponents that he will not spare them upon his third visit. He admonishes them to examine themselves to be sure that they are in the faith.


6. And there are times we see him share mundane and business related matters w/ little or no bearing to us ….

Everything from farewells, greetings, appeals for offerings and even travel plans …

2 Cor 1:12-2:4
Paul wrote to defend himself against the charge that he changed his travel plans several times without justification. The charge was that Paul could not be trusted to do what he promised. He explained that, each time he changed his travel plans, he had a good reason.

-------------------------------------------------------
And so the question in my thread title still holds:

Did Paul consider or intend for his letters to be holy writ?

What considerations should we make when reconciling the nature of these writings and our obligation to rightly divide the Word?

Do all of his words hold equal weight w/ pronouncements from God through the prophets, patriarchs and even those quoted by Jesus in the Gospels and Revelation?

What must we factor when teaching and formulating doctrine based on the Epsitles? Target audience? Purpose of writing? Specific issues germaine to the time and culture?

Is Paul rolling over in his grave at the sight of how the modern-day Church has handled, or maybe mis-handled, his letters?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:12 AM
Cindy's Avatar
Cindy Cindy is offline
Forever Loved Admin


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 26,537
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

We can't know the answers to your question, although you seem to have come to a conclusion. He certainly knew the Word of God would live beyone his time, but how could he know that his writings would become part of it? I don't really know. But they are.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:22 AM
Encryptus Encryptus is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: "New" Mexico
Posts: 977
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

Interesting but of course rhetorical question.

It is obvious when Paul speaks of scripture he meant Torah because the Bible as we know was not canonized within his lifetime, or even his generation.

It would be interesting to see how Christendom would react if for example the lost espistle to the Laodiceans were found
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:22 AM
Jack Shephard's Avatar
Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
Strange in a Strange Land...


 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Island
Posts: 5,512
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

Often times writers or people that write their work becomes more prolific after their passing. You often see this with painters and other artist as well. I think that Paul meant for his writtings to be used to motivate and to lead a people. There is no way to know for certain whether he meant them to be Holy Writ. I believe that God led him to write it and God did the rest.
__________________
"If we don't learn to live together we're gonna die alone"
Jack Shephard.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:23 AM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

Indeed, Encryptus ...

Colossians 4:16, mentions a letter sent to the church in Laodicea.

"Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea."

Most commentators on this passage express the view that this letter must have been lost. Yet, that is a surprising opinion when you think about the care early Christians took in preserving the words of God. We also need to remember Jesus' promise expressed in Mark 13:31, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Jesus was stating the certainty of the prophesy that he just made, but it remains that God views his word as permanent. The apostles also say that their writings would be long-lasting. "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because "All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away, But the word of the LORD endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you" (I Peter 1:22-25).

The idea that we have lost a letter that was known to at least two congregations is very disturbing.

So, what has happened to the letter to the Laodiceans?

http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org...2003-10-29.htm
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:26 AM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encryptus View Post
Interesting but of course rhetorical question.

It is obvious when Paul speaks of scripture he meant Torah because the Bible as we know was not canonized within his lifetime, or even his generation.

It would be interesting to see how Christendom would react if for example the lost espistle to the Laodiceans were found
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
Often times writers or people that write their work becomes more prolific after their passing. You often see this with painters and other artist as well. I think that Paul meant for his writtings to be used to motivate and to lead a people. There is no way to know for certain whether he meant them to be Holy Writ. I believe that God led him to write it and God did the rest.
But what should we factor in formulating and teaching doctrine when it comes to the nature of these letters ...?

By Paul's admission some of it is personal opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:32 AM
James Griffin's Avatar
James Griffin James Griffin is offline
ultra con (at least here)


 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
Posts: 1,962
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

Daniel there is a difference between questioning the theology found in Paul's "letters" - Mainly Romans, and Hebrews etc. and the pastoral letters concerning dress and conduct. Women's hair- "we have no other custom".

Are you attempting to delineate between the two or are you suggesting nothing but the historical books (Gospels and Acts) should be considered sacred. Or that only the prophetic book (Revelation) should be?

What are you purposing be accepted as sacred, and what are you purposing be accepted as Apostle Paul's suggestion?

Where would the line be drawn and what would be the criteria. And if more importantly who would decide?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:35 AM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Griffin View Post
Daniel there is a difference between questioning the theology found in Paul's "letters" - Mainly Romans, and Hebrews etc. and the pastoral letters concerning dress and conduct. Women's hair- "we have no other custom".

Are you attempting to delineate between the two or are you suggesting nothing but the historical books (Gospels and Acts) should be considered sacred. Or that only the prophetic book (Revelation) should be?

What are you purposing be accepted as sacred, and what are you purposing be accepted as Apostle Paul's suggestion?

Where would the line be drawn and what would be the criteria. And if more importantly who would decide?
All very good questions ... That we need to examine, James.

I think the Bible as we have it is sacred, BTW ... including the Epistles.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:40 AM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

On the subject of the pastoral passages found in Paul's writings ... James ...

Does the pastoral advice to one individual ... or church ... apply to all in all instances for all time?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:40 AM
deltaguitar's Avatar
deltaguitar deltaguitar is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Flower Mound, Tx
Posts: 2,791
Re: Did Paul intend for his writings to be Holy Wr

Hmmm . . . I thought that at the council of something or another they decided what was cannon and what wasn't.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What about Ron Paul? TK Burk The Newsroom 51 02-25-2008 09:54 AM
writings not in the canon of scripture slave4him The Library 3 10-24-2007 06:08 PM
Our writings Sister Alvear Fellowship Hall 6 05-29-2007 09:45 AM
Ron Paul live, right now~~~!!!! Eliseus The Newsroom 14 04-10-2007 01:26 PM
Do you obey all of Pauls writings? COOPER Deep Waters 38 03-31-2007 08:00 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.