Quote:
Originally Posted by Kutless
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ............
JUst looking for some feedback on this passage. My trinitarian friend just tossed it out there. Whatch'yall say?
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Your Trinitarian friend probably doesn't realize that is
a killer Oneness scripture, when understood correctly. Even many Oneness folks don't see the power in that scripture, and the concept behind it.
(The key is that Trinity is founded on not teaching the doctrine of the
begotten son, but of an
eternally preexistent Son, not taught in scripture.)
Undeniably, Jesus is God, as the bible makes very plain. But the Trinitarian formulation has major flaws in it, partly because of the [pagan influenced, and philosophically influenced] triune mold and mindset that many tried to fit God into, during the period of time the Trinity doctrine was being developed.
The concept here is fairly simple actually:
If Jesus was eternally preexistent with God, (and we know
God never changes ..
Mal 3:6), then the 2nd person of the Godhead would not ever refer to the 1st person as
his God, neither would the Apostle Paul or any of the NT writers do so... because in the "Trinity" they are all equal and alway have been.
For example we see that:
*Paul repeatedly refers to the God of our Lord Jesus Christ (such as in
Eph 1:17,
Eph 1:3, ).
* Jesus referred to the father as "My God" (
Rev 3:12)
* John also referred to the Father as "His God" (i.e Jesus' God) in
Rev 1:6
* The prophet speaking to Christ calls the Father "your god" (i.e. Jesus' God) in
Psalm 45:7/
Hebrews 1:9
* In
Mark 13:32 Jesus refers to
his limited knowledge as the Son of God, when he says the Son doesn't know the day of His coming , but only the Father does. ..."
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." ...
(This would make no sense if Jesus was simply the incarnation of the preexistent 2nd person of the Godhead,
since God does not change. His omniscience would be part of His nature at all times!)
These scriptures are not problem at all with with Oneness theology -- in fact, they fit perfectly-- but are hugely contradictory against the Trinity doctrine. These scriptures support the teaching Jesus was the
created Son, not the
eternally preexistent son. He was born as the fleshly incarnation, and image of God, and has always been subservient to and subject to the Father.
This is why we can say that at Jesus baptism we didn't see 3 eternal persons, but had the
eternal Father speaking of his Son, i.e. the
begotten Son (the image of God/ & incarnation of "the Word").
That is why Jesus (both before and after his death & resurrection) would refer to the Father as "my God", while of course the Father would
never refer to the Son as "my God" at any time.
It is with this understanding that Paul refers to the Father as "the God of Jesus Christ", (
Eph 1:3, 17, 2 Cor 1:3,
Col 1:3), The whole concept of the NT even speaking of a "
God of Jesus Christ" blows the Trinity doctrine right off its foundations.
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