...our knowledge is based on subjective observation, conditioned by the limits of language within the context of our society.
True, but knowledge should stand up to enough scrutiny as to be judged reliable, or "true enough" to successfully use that knowledge to accomplish something, example, to enter an aluminum tube to safely fly our bodies across the country. Or, knowledge need not be too profound either--it's useful social knowledge to smile and reply, "Fine, thank-you, and how are you?"
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receiving the holy ghost is the only verifiable experience and that experience is personal.
Receiving the holy ghost is verifiable? I see how what someone is doing (specifically, "speaking strangely") is verifiable, but to extrapolate from that and say we know what someone is receiving? Not verifiable, rather merely belief.
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...language and society informs our knowledge of things we believe to be true.
Or in some cases "tries to inform." Consider any religion you do not agree with--perhaps Islam--1.6 billion followers, all saying it is "true." Big numbers are merely data points to carefully consider.
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i believe christianity to be reasonable and believable
Oh, it's definitely believable given that 2.2 billion people on earth do believe it to some degree. But if the goal is "truth" (or to nudge toward truth as close as we can) then it's essential to not equate belief with knowledge. Regardless how strongly a belief is believed, the two are not the same. So enjoy the belief if necessary, but please don't tell everyone else it's knowledge (as you, above, did not, thank you. ) We got to the moon based on demonstrable knowledge, not with something merely believed. If you can't show it, you don't know it.
I will probably never plumb the bottom of what truth (with a capital T) is, but the field of possibilities becomes much narrower after we are willing to eliminate whatever is evidentially false, regardless how uncomfortable a conclusion may seem at first.
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no religion in the world can prove that it is true.
Yet much of at least the first three chapters of Genesis can demonstrably be shown to be false if interpreted (at all) literally. But for any Bible literalist, there exists no self-correcting mechanism for arriving at a more evident truth. Once wrong, always wrong, for a fundamentalist, whether Islamic, Christian, or Jewish. The believer-in-literal-scripture is essentially sworn to maintain the set of beliefs regardless of contradicting (sometimes newly discovered) facts. And that requirement is upon pain of eternal torment--not a good method for following wherever evident truth may lead, but rather only for maintaining what has been prescribed for you to believe--handed down from the Bronze Age.
Timmy, I recall while in Bible College (UPC,) it was common to hear something such as, "Our country is founded upon Judeo-Christian principles and values." Today, although I don't disagree with that, I do wonder exactly what is meant by "founded upon." We should also include "founded upon" Roman/Greco values, and especially founded upon the huge attitude adjustment provided by the Age of Enlightenment, where faith, tradition, and authority were all put under the scrutiny and judgment of natural reason. The Declaration of course mentions a god, but the document having the real legal teeth--The Constitution--mentions God nowhere.
For one possible example of our "Judeo-Christian heritage", let's take the 10 commandments, and consider a question about each one: "Does our government/legal system legislate, enforce laws concerning this commandment? Rate each one from 0 to 100. "0" means US law does not address adherence to the commandment (or some similar restatement of the commandment) and 100 would mean yes, it's defacto law in USA. I'll give my ratings, any Timmy Talk reader feel free to give yours.
1. Thou shall have no other Gods before me.
score: 0
2. No graven images, whether of heaven above, or of earth below.
score: 0
3. Don't take God's name in vain.
score: 0
4. No work on the Sabbath
score: 0
5. Honor your father and mother.
score: 0
6. Shalt not murder
score: 100. A hit!
7. Shalt not commit adultery.
score: 20, being generous. Some states have adultery laws on the books, but essentially not enforced--mostly used for divorce justification. Military law can prosecute for adultery among its members, theoretically. Or, you can fess up and quit first. But if you are, say, Commander in Chief of the military, it's still no big deal (Clinton.)
8. Shalt not steal.
score: 100. Another hit, unless of course you are Congress or upper level bankers, then it's legal.
9. Shalt not lie.
score: 20. It's illegal to lie in court, on affadavits, to break contracts, etc, etc. But in general, it's legal to lie like a rug. (Ask some televangelists.)
10. Don't covet neighbor's wife or property.
score: 0
Grand score; 240 out of possible 1000. (24%.) I wonder if Egyptian society under Moses' former employer Pharoah would have scored higher or lower?. My guess-- about the same!
You fail on the ten commandments. Get your money back from the bible college.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour does not mean Thou shalt not lie.
God instructed people to lie all the time in the bible.
6 Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil. 8 You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee.
10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.
Jesus lied to his brothers? Was this lie a sin? It was not if Jesus was sinless and if it was not then the 9th commandment prohibits bearing false witness (falsely accuse) not lying
Yes I do, along with the rest of humanity, according to Peter.
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Get your money back from the bible college.
Pray tell, are you aware of any kind of college that gives such refunds? Please notice also that the bible college connection I referred to was regarding opinons about how our country was supposedly "founded on Christian principles." Anyhow, I don't recall any outright study about the 10 commandments in UPC Bible college--only typical references to them. The 10 commandments are typically taught in local church basements--Sunday School--which used to be free tuition, so refunds not likely there, either.
But since we are quibbling over "The 10 commandments," here's a better curiosity, rarely mentioned. The 10 commandments that appear in Exodus 34:1-28 is a different set of commandments than the ones I paraphrased (Exodus 20.). Both sets of 10 commandments share this: 1.Laws given to Moses by Yahweh. 2. Written on stone tablets, 3. Referred to in OT as "the ten commandments." (Ex 34:28)
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God instructed people to lie all the time in the bible.
Not true--only some of the time, as well as to kill people, rape, and steal.
6 Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil. 8 You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee.
10 However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.
Such discrepancies where the same author in the same paragraph contradicts himself are not very compelling. For all I know, Jesus was merely using his super powers to say, "Folks, I'm not going to the fiesta NOW, but I know exactly when the Pharisees will be in the right place, so you'se guys go on ahead, catch ya later maybe..."
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Was this lie a sin? It was not if Jesus was sinless and if it was not then the 9th commandment prohibits bearing false witness (falsely accuse) not lying
Don't follow that. Who are you claiming is possibly bearing false witness? John? Anyhow, as with every other questionable behavior in the Bible, if God does it, it's okay.
Yes I do, along with the rest of humanity, according to Peter.
Pray tell, are you aware of any kind of college that gives such refunds? Please notice also that the bible college connection I referred to was regarding opinons about how our country was supposedly "founded on Christian principles." Anyhow, I don't recall any outright study about the 10 commandments in UPC Bible college--only typical references to them. The 10 commandments are typically taught in local church basements--Sunday School--which used to be free tuition, so refunds not likely there, either.
But since we are quibbling over "The 10 commandments," here's a better curiosity, rarely mentioned. The 10 commandments that appear in Exodus 34:1-28 is a different set of commandments than the ones I paraphrased (Exodus 20.). Both sets of 10 commandments share this: 1.Laws given to Moses by Yahweh. 2. Written on stone tablets, 3. Referred to in OT as "the ten commandments." (Ex 34:28)
Not true--only some of the time, as well as to kill people, rape, and steal.
Such discrepancies where the same author in the same paragraph contradicts himself are not very compelling. For all I know, Jesus was merely using his super powers to say, "Folks, I'm not going to the fiesta NOW, but I know exactly when the Pharisees will be in the right place, so you'se guys go on ahead, catch ya later maybe..."
Don't follow that. Who are you claiming is possibly bearing false witness? John? Anyhow, as with every other questionable behavior in the Bible, if God does it, it's okay.
I'll summarize and make it easy for you to follow sport: Nowhere in the bible does it say "thou shalt not lie" and nowhere in the bible was "thou shalt not lie" practiced
That is a "christian" thing but it is not a bible thing and that "christian" thing is limited by the shephards only to the sheeple but definitely not to the shepherds. How else would they scare sheeple to crowd around the alter without a few juiced up stories to tell.
Last edited by Walks_in_islam; 05-31-2013 at 06:46 PM.
Looks like you got your money's worth in that bible college after all. You're headed at a minimum for the priesthood or maybe even a shot at sunday school superintendent. Comes with a pension! Good work
Last edited by Walks_in_islam; 05-31-2013 at 10:08 PM.
Looks like you got your money's worth in that bible college after all. You're headed at a minimum for the priesthood or maybe even a shot at sunday school superintendent. Comes with a pension! Good work
So, pentecostal education has a connection with becoming a priest? Is that another islamic perspective? Either way, you probably didn't realize the coincidence when you addressed me "sport"--that is the same nickname two priests used for me when I was a young boy in a catholic parish.
I like you. Are we still friends?
So, pentecostal education has a connection with becoming a priest? Is that another islamic perspective? Either way, you probably didn't realize the coincidence when you addressed me "sport"--that is the same nickname two priests used for me when I was a young boy in a catholic parish.
I like you. Are we still friends?
(laughing) I will let you figure out the priest and sunday school superintendent thing. It will give you something fun and productive to do.
"Sport" is limited to the ranks of the priesthood as a term of endearment for young boys and is probably not to be extrapolated to the rest of society.
) We got to the moon based on demonstrable knowledge, not with something merely believed. If you can't show it, you don't know it.
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