When is a lie justified?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by NLYP

Just wondered.....
When is a lie justified??

Any thoughts?

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I wonder if it would be considered a lie to be a licensed minister with the UPCI, sign an AS which when done says you are affirming that you will uphold and teach the articles of faith that the UPCI has, and then have a tv and watch secular entertainment in your home??


BTW DAN, I have read the PM's. ALL that was stated was "Ask Away" and "Just ask already". There was never a "word" given, so there is no lie.

Originally Posted by NLYP

There is another lie!!!! Except this time told to you and misleading, obviously you you were NOT given ALL the pm's!
I just sent them to you!
I never intended for details to go public.....!!!

Originally Posted by NLYP

And that is what I am asking to be Publically cleared up.
I did not give details nor information, and with St. Matts info...not only is in wrong but paints me dishonest and that is what I want cleared up.

Dan,

I will post this publicly since this is where it started. No where in my post is there any statement that says you are lying or dishonest about this. I did not accuse you of lying. I never said that you were a liar. Please show me where I stated you were a liar? I did not even imply you were a liar. I stated that there was no lie.

(edited and added by Stmatt - I have taken counsel by someone I highly respect and they have talked to me on this situation. I want to make it clear that DAN IS NOT A LIAR. And I apologize for any implication of that being the case. I did not mean for that to be implied. A conversation occurred between an Admin and Dan where Dan felt that Admins word to him was broken because it was discussed in the admin area. My initial post, and this one as well, was in a very upset state over this because I felt Dan was taking a shot at the Admin, and though I did not see the implication of Dan being called dishonest, others do, and for that I am sorry. As I stated at the end of this post, I am happy to discuss this, not just privately, but here publicly)

See, the real issue is that behind the scenes you accuse an admin of lying, and then come on publicly and start this thread. To everyone out here that did not see the behind the scenes deal, it is just innocent questions. But to us Admin, it is both offensive and an insult. Whether someone keep their word to you or not, for you to start this thread after the event happened is WRONG. It became, whether you intended it to or not, a "hidden" slap in the face. This is what has me upset.

NOTE: You folks want openness and "full disclosure", well here is some full disclosure for you.

Dan, I will be happy to discuss this further in PM more with you if it is needed. I am considering it a closed deal on my end, as I have dealt with enough for one day.

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Dan,

I will post this publicly since this is where it started. No where in my post is there any statement that says you are lying or dishonest about this. I did not accuse you of lying. I never said that you were a liar. Please show me where I stated you were a liar? I did not even imply you were a liar. I stated that there was no lie.

(edited and added by Stmatt - I have taken counsel by someone I highly respect and they have talked to me on this situation. I want to make it clear that DAN IS NOT A LIAR. And I apologize for any implication of that being the case. I did not mean for that to be implied. A conversation occurred between an Admin and Dan where Dan felt that Admins word to him was broken because it was discussed in the admin area. My initial post, and this one as well, was in a very upset state over this because I felt Dan was taking a shot at the Admin, and though I did not see the implication of Dan being called dishonest, others do, and for that I am sorry. As I stated at the end of this post, I am happy to discuss this, not just privately, but here publicly)

See, the real issue is that behind the scenes you accuse an admin of lying, and then come on publicly and start this thread. To everyone out here that did not see the behind the scenes deal, it is just innocent questions. But to us Admin, it is both offensive and an insult. Whether someone keep their word to you or not, for you to start this thread after the event happened is WRONG. It became, whether you intended it to or not, a "hidden" slap in the face. This is what has me upset.

NOTE: You folks want openness and "full disclosure", well here is some full disclosure for you.

Dan, I will be happy to discuss this further in PM more with you if it is needed. I am considering it a closed deal on my end, as I have dealt with enough for one day.

Matt....
While I do thank you for this...Dan did not "FEEL" anything....a member of the admin team openly said that if I asked them a question they I had their WORD it was confidential..I trusted a member of this admin team.....THEY lied to me...I felt nothing.
I am asking you to call it like it was....this person did break their word to me...not a "felt"...they DID>

I gave you my user name and password...go...read my pm's...they cant be altered.
BUT...I have always ...always said you are a man of integrity.
The reason I felt you implied I was lying was because you stated that you had "read all the pm's and NOWHERE was it stated that someone gave me their word.
That would imply I am making it up...henceforth..."lying".
I now prove otherwise with facts and you say I "felt".

Now...the SOLE purpose of the thread was not to take a shot at admin but to get the opinions of others (without facts) as to when a lie is justified.
You made it a public matter...not me.

You a good man and my friend....And Im proud to say a true Christian. Please dont take this personal.
Where does this stand with the member that has been proven to be untruthful.
If you wish to take this PM....no prob.

[H2H]

Originally Posted by NLYP

Matt....
While I do thank you for this...Dan did not "FEEL" anything....a member of the admin team openly said that if I asked them a question they I had their WORD it was confidential..I trusted a member of this admin team.....THEY lied to me...I felt nothing.
I am asking you to call it like it was....this person did break their word to me...not a "felt"...they DID>

I gave you my user name and password...go...read my pm's...they cant be altered.
BUT...I have always ...always said you are a man of integrity.
The reason I felt you implied I was lying was because you stated that you had "read all the pm's and NOWHERE was it stated that someone gave me their word.
That would imply I am making it up...henceforth..."lying".
I now prove otherwise with facts and you say I "felt".

Now...the SOLE purpose of the thread was not to take a shot at admin but to get the opinions of others (without facts) as to when a lie is justified.
You made it a public matter...not me.

You a good man and my friend....And Im proud to say a true Christian. Please dont take this personal.
Where does this stand with the member that has been proven to be untruthful.
If you wish to take this PM....no prob.

NLYP, I would like to weigh in by saying I love your signature lines!!

"It matters not if you are left wing or right wing....It takes BOTH wings to make the bird fly"
TF Tenney

"The reason we fight the charismatics is because...bless God if we have to put a dime in the meter...everybodys gotta put a dime in the meter"
Jeff Arnold
BOTT

"Most churches are 3 or 4 funerals away from revival"
Terry Shock

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by H2H

NLYP, I would like to weigh in by saying I love your signature lines!!

"It matters not if you are left wing or right wing....It takes BOTH wings to make the bird fly"
TF Tenney

"The reason we fight the charismatics is because...bless God if we have to put a dime in the meter...everybodys gotta put a dime in the meter"
Jeff Arnold
BOTT

"Most churches are 3 or 4 funerals away from revival"
Terry Shock

Thanks H2H...
3 brilliant men and personal mentors.

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Dan,

I will post this publicly since this is where it started. No where in my post is there any statement that says you are lying or dishonest about this. I did not accuse you of lying. I never said that you were a liar. Please show me where I stated you were a liar? I did not even imply you were a liar. I stated that there was no lie.

(edited and added by Stmatt - I have taken counsel by someone I highly respect and they have talked to me on this situation. I want to make it clear that DAN IS NOT A LIAR. And I apologize for any implication of that being the case. I did not mean for that to be implied. A conversation occurred between an Admin and Dan where Dan felt that Admins word to him was broken because it was discussed in the admin area. My initial post, and this one as well, was in a very upset state over this because I felt Dan was taking a shot at the Admin, and though I did not see the implication of Dan being called dishonest, others do, and for that I am sorry. As I stated at the end of this post, I am happy to discuss this, not just privately, but here publicly)

See, the real issue is that behind the scenes you accuse an admin of lying, and then come on publicly and start this thread. To everyone out here that did not see the behind the scenes deal, it is just innocent questions. But to us Admin, it is both offensive and an insult. Whether someone keep their word to you or not, for you to start this thread after the event happened is WRONG. It became, whether you intended it to or not, a "hidden" slap in the face. This is what has me upset.

NOTE: You folks want openness and "full disclosure", well here is some full disclosure for you.

Dan, I will be happy to discuss this further in PM more with you if it is needed. I am considering it a closed deal on my end, as I have dealt with enough for one day.

Matt...you totally missed it!
I WANTED to get the attention to admin.....I was being one side quoted and I was not about to sit there and let that happen...it got your attention.....mission accomplished.
I would have never openly rebuked admin...it was my way of begging you guys to address this!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by NLYP

Matt....
While I do thank you for this...Dan did not "FEEL" anything....a member of the admin team openly said that if I asked them a question they I had their WORD it was confidential..I trusted a member of this admin team.....THEY lied to me...I felt nothing.
I am asking you to call it like it was....this person did break their word to me...not a "felt"...they DID>

I gave you my user name and password...go...read my pm's...they cant be altered.
BUT...I have always ...always said you are a man of integrity.
The reason I felt you implied I was lying was because you stated that you had "read all the pm's and NOWHERE was it stated that someone gave me their word.
That would imply I am making it up...henceforth..."lying".
I now prove otherwise with facts and you say I "felt".

Now...the SOLE purpose of the thread was not to take a shot at admin but to get the opinions of others (without facts) as to when a lie is justified.
You made it a public matter...not me.

You a good man and my friend....And Im proud to say a true Christian. Please dont take this personal.
Where does this stand with the member that has been proven to be untruthful.
If you wish to take this PM....no prob.

I will be honest, the situation of what was told is not between me and you. That is between the person and you. You will need to deal with them personally on that particular part, and I am not going to speak for them. What is between me and you is being dealt with here.

My issue is that to start this thread was wrong, because you had dealt with an Admin in admin capacity on this, and then started the thread. And to ask an admin to withhold info from other admin was wrong, especially when the info was about admin team decisions. It is, IMHO, sowing discord. It makes it seem like you are playing one admin against another. You have done this for some time now, because we DO talk and share what is going on within the forum. If we keep things hidden within the administration between admins, we will stop trusting one another, and this forum will crumble from within.


So Dan, I have taken responsibility for my post, and sought to correct it to the best of my ability. Do whatever you feel necessary.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by NLYP

Matt...you totally missed it!
I WANTED to get the attention to admin.....I was being one side quoted and I was not about to sit there and let that happen...it got your attention.....mission accomplished.
I would have never openly rebuked admin...it was my way of begging you guys to address this!

It's all about Dan saving the world. I give up.

[mizpeh]

Matt:18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Dan, I think you skipped step #2...

NOTE: You folks want openness and "full disclosure", well here is some full disclosure for you.

This is too much openess for me. It's personal between the two parties and those in charge. Some dirty laundry doesn't need to be aired in public unless there is no other recourse.

Love covers a multitude of sins. He that covers a transgression seeks love.

[RevDWW]

An oft overlooked and under applied attribute of Christ:


Isa 53:7 (KJV)
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I will be honest, the situation of what was told is not between me and you. That is between the person and you. You will need to deal with them personally on that particular part, and I am not going to speak for them. What is between me and you is being dealt with here.

My issue is that to start this thread was wrong, because you had dealt with an Admin in admin capacity on this, and then started the thread. And to ask an admin to withhold info from other admin was wrong, especially when the info was about admin team decisions. It is, IMHO, sowing discord. It makes it seem like you are playing one admin against another. You have done this for some time now, because we DO talk and share what is going on within the forum. If we keep things hidden within the administration between admins, we will stop trusting one another, and this forum will crumble from within.


So Dan, I have taken responsibility for my post, and sought to correct it to the best of my ability. Do whatever you feel necessary.

No Matt...I dealt with someone that has known my wife for some 20 or more years that I was addressing as a friend. My Father in law was her Pastor when she was young. And Tiffany was quite excited that they had "reunited" after so long.

"I have done this for some time now"????? What does that mean?
I am NOT for sowing discord...I am for EVERYBODY being honest!

Plus....her defense was that it is admin policy that all pm's regarding admin are supposed to be reported to admin....yet I am told that this is not true.

UGH! I give up.

I do thank you for the correcting that you did.
But remember...."perception" of what Admin thinks is simply that....perception.
TO give your word and then within 30 seconds go back on your word is not perception its WRONG!
I would have dealt fine with it had she said "Dan...I cannot give you my word because I am bound to report it to admin"
I would have respected that.....But she did not....she gave her word and then ....lied on it.

Not life or death, not to keep someone from getting hurt...just to run her mouth.

I am sorry this even happened.
To the admin involved...lets just move on from here.
TO you that are reading this please stop asking...Im not saying anything...(you know why?...because believe it or not I DONT want to hurt admin OR "sow discord")