List of grace giving churches.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

EVER?!

I was "sat down" (years ago) for even talking to my pastor behind closed doors about why I believed it was unbiblical. Actually it wasn't a conversation, because I barely got to speak, he just cut me off several times told me I was deceived and rebellious, and if I didn't pay my tithes, I would go to hell. Instead of trying to talk over him, I listened to him respectfully, and just let it die. A few weeks later he brought me a Bible study on tithing, which was filled with the same regurgitated logic (e.g. Matthew 23:23, Jesus didn't rebuke the Pharisees for tithing) which didn't help me at all. I actually stayed in that church after I was "sat down" and remained faithful to that man until he died, even though I strongly disagreed with him on that issue.

But you say you don't think you EVER heard it preached that way? WOW. I've heard it a lot, and in no uncertain terms, and by "prominent" men. Both in the UPC and independent oneness preachers.

Most trinitarian pastors would have reacted the same way. Tithing is a doctrine that is above debate. It has special status.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

No Apostolic church would commit financial suicide in order to support a strange new doctrine.

The tithe was established from before the law, during the law and even after the law.

Admittedly, I have not read every response to this thread, but would you mind sharing where God established tithing before the Law? Please read my request carefully.

[Nitehawk013]

He can't because that is aload of garbage. Before the law you have Abe tithing ONE time off of spoiled goods, not income. YOu have Jacob telling God that IF God blessed him he would return 10%, but then NO RECORD of Jacob actually ever giving 10% to anyone or anything.

After the law? Jews today don't tithe because there is NO TEMPLE or Preisthood to tithe to.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

He can't because that is aload of garbage. Before the law you have Abe tithing ONE time off of spoiled goods, not income. YOu have Jacob telling God that IF God blessed him he would return 10%, but then NO RECORD of Jacob actually ever giving 10% to anyone or anything.

After the law? Jews today don't tithe because there is NO TEMPLE or Preisthood to tithe to.

No Levitical city to take it to either.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

He can't because that is aload of garbage. Before the law you have Abe tithing ONE time off of spoiled goods, not income. YOu have Jacob telling God that IF God blessed him he would return 10%, but then NO RECORD of Jacob actually ever giving 10% to anyone or anything.

After the law? Jews today don't tithe because there is NO TEMPLE or Preisthood to tithe to.

If a forever principle as some claim why did Jacob think he could bargain with God over it? Doesn't make sense.

Also war booty was not a proper tithe concerning the Mosaic law.

So many gaps and holes.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

He can't because that is aload of garbage. Before the law you have Abe tithing ONE time off of spoiled goods, not income. YOu have Jacob telling God that IF God blessed him he would return 10%, but then NO RECORD of Jacob actually ever giving 10% to anyone or anything.

After the law? Jews today don't tithe because there is NO TEMPLE or Preisthood to tithe to.

He can't is a lie, please do not lie, it is not nice.

Of course I can but you already listed the passages I was going to use.

Your refusal to accept a common interpretation of certain verses, does not equate to he can't. so next time, think before you speak otherwise you might end lying again.

[Nitehawk013]

No lie involved. You were asked to show where God ESTABLISHED tithing pre-law. Those instances, even at face value, would nto be God establishing, but rather man acting of his own will. There was no eastablishment of the tithe as we know it today until God spelled it out in the Law. Malachi is used as the hammer to demand compliance to tithing, and Malachi is in relation to the established Levitical tithign system only. That is where tithign was established by God. The Law.

Andas has been showsn by many on this board and elsewhere, the church isn't bound to that.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

No lie involved. You were asked to show where God ESTABLISHED tithing pre-law. Those instances, even at face value, would nto be God establishing, but rather man acting of his own will. There was no eastablishment of the tithe as we know it today until God spelled it out in the Law. Malachi is used as the hammer to demand compliance to tithing, and Malachi is in relation to the established Levitical tithign system only. That is where tithign was established by God. The Law.

Andas has been showsn by many on this board and elsewhere, the church isn't bound to that.

Of course you know that I and others disagree with your interpretation.
We do believe that those verses do establish tithing pre-Law.
Things do not necessarily have to be spelled out in the law, Circumcision wasn't, yet it was a part of the covenant.

[Nitehawk013]

There is a difference between having an example of somethign happening before the law and the point where something becomes established as a requirement by God. Tithing existed before the law. Heck, it was a cultural practice. You gave a tenth to kings and such. The fact that men did it doesn't mean God established it.

It was not established as God's intended method of giving to support the priesthood until the Law. There was no command to obediance, or punishment for lack of tithing, until the Law. So examples of tithing prior to the establishment of the Law are not the same as that which then becamse a mandate under the Law. That really shouldn't be that hard to understand. Especially not when you consider the circumstances around the pre-law tithing examples. Abraham didn't tithe of his own earnings or crops. He gave of th espoils of war, which was outlawed under the Law regarding tithes. Jacob only said he would give IF God first blessed him. Again, not in line with the tithe as established under the Law. If anything, Jacob's act supports and enforces what we call modern day grace giving. You give as you can when God blesses you. You don't give if you have nothing to give.

The circumcision example fails. Its not apples to apples. While circum may not be spelled out in great detail under the law, tithing was VERY detailed. What was required, by whom, where to give, when to give, who it was for, etc were all spelled out in great detail. The church today fails to meet EVERY aspect of the tithe detailed in the law. The ony thing held in common is calling it a tithe. I was going to say the fact that it is 10% is still in common, but that would be incorrect as well since the TitheS spelled out for Israel totalled either 23 1/3 or 30% depending on your preferred interpretation.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

There is a difference between having an example of somethign happening before the law and the point where something becomes established as a requirement by God. Tithing existed before the law. Heck, it was a cultural practice. You gave a tenth to kings and such. The fact that men did it doesn't mean God established it.

It was not established as God's intended method of giving to support the priesthood until the Law. There was no command to obediance, or punishment for lack of tithing, until the Law. So examples of tithing prior to the establishment of the Law are not the same as that which then becamse a mandate under the Law. That really shouldn't be that hard to understand. Especially not when you consider the circumstances around the pre-law tithing examples. Abraham didn't tithe of his own earnings or crops. He gave of th espoils of war, which was outlawed under the Law regarding tithes. Jacob only said he would give IF God first blessed him. Again, not in line with the tithe as established under the Law. If anything, Jacob's act supports and enforces what we call modern day grace giving. You give as you can when God blesses you. You don't give if you have nothing to give.

The circumcision example fails. Its not apples to apples. While circum may not be spelled out in great detail under the law, tithing was VERY detailed. What was required, by whom, where to give, when to give, who it was for, etc were all spelled out in great detail. The church today fails to meet EVERY aspect of the tithe detailed in the law. The ony thing held in common is calling it a tithe. I was going to say the fact that it is 10% is still in common, but that would be incorrect as well since the TitheS spelled out for Israel totalled either 23 1/3 or 30% depending on your preferred interpretation.

Unfortunately for you , you are not talking to the choir, so no I am not going to say amen to your interpretation of these verses.

Abraham gave the tithes to Melchizedek who was a figure and type of Christ, in giving the tithes to Melchizedek he pointed toward a different priesthood, and Melchizedek accepted the tithes, this is a figure of Jesus accepting tithes, since Jesus is this Melchizedek we too follow the example of Abraham and give our tithe unto Jesus.

Jacob knew about the tithe makes us suspect that the tithe was practiced in some form by Isaac and Jacob learned this principle from his father, for it is obvious that Jacob knew about tithing.