Gay Marriage: For or Against?

[coadie]

Originally Posted by crakjak

While you rag on the US, we provide by far the MOST aid to the needy in the world, no matter the crisis, no matter where in the world you will find the USA and Christians to be the very first on the scene with manpower and open wallets to rescue the needy. Your ragging sounds like the mayor of New Orleans screaming at Washington while he had 2000 buses setting idle at his disposal!!!! Fools in city hall and in the state house is the most pressing danger to this country and the world.

The pro gay movemnt changes the subject and tries to call out inhospitality. DAII can't refer to Jude for some reason.


4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.


I say defiling the flesh is clear here and the hospitality issues are secondary.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by coadie

Good point. You didn't read the study. The data came from the Netherlands which had 13 years of gay marriage. Pro Gay libs don't do well with studies that don't support the deeds.

Genesis 13:13
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.


unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Looks like Lot knows that knowing them was doing wickedly. sex with males.


Always toss out the Homophobia accusation.
People seem to make stuff up and accuse of phobias.

These verses do not give the reason the two cities were destroyed. It lists things that were doing but it is not the reason. The reason is very clearly given in scripture.

The Netherlands statistic is meaningless. Thirteen years is nothing and cannot, at all, establish any kind of a trend. It excludes the consideration of the rush of couples who jumped in immediately to get married on a whim just because it was legal. This number will radically change.

I used the term, "Homophobia" because it seems, so far, to apply. Maybe you're not. But you're exhibiting all the signs, expressing very biased opinions and quoting extremely slanted research. You're not doing much to convince anyone otherwise.

[Aquila]

No doubt there was pride and inhospitality present in Sodom and Gomorrha. However, the text also mentions their "abominations". I think it's important to define those abominations. Most agree that it was fornication and general sodomy. But the way we define this may not be the way it was defined in ancient cultures.

Some claim that "fornication" was essentially connected to idolatrous practices among temple prostitutes. They also claim that the "homosexuality" mentioned in the text isn't your typical example as seen privately among law abiding citizens, but rather it was more of a homosexual "rape". We see this twice in Scripture. Lot was almost raped by the people of Sodom. They didn't invite him out for dinner. They attempted to rape him. Also, we see this in Judges when the Sons of Baal attempt to rape a traveling Levite and instead take his concubine. This was an act of violence... not so much "perversion". It's more akin to the KKK taking an African American traveler and attempting to rape him, just because they feel they need to "teach him a lesson". Beyond this we don't see anyone executed anywhere in the OT for the sin of homosexuality itself. We do see Sodomites (male temple prostitutes) vanquished from the land. But we never read of a homosexual being executed for simply homosexual behavior.

I'd say that we have to approach the issue with Christian grace. These are human beings who need Jesus just as much as any other sinner. Yes, they have different struggles than you and me... but Jesus died for them just as he died for us. I'm not convinced there isn't a "genetic" or "biological" component. For that reason I advocate grace, forgiveness, counsel, and healing for those who struggle in this area. I don't believe we should throw them to the enemy as trash. They are people desperately in need of the same grace and mercy we call upon every day.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Liberal

These verses do not give the reason the two cities were destroyed. It lists things that were doing but it is not the reason. The reason is very clearly given in scripture.

The Netherlands statistic is meaningless. Thirteen years is nothing and cannot, at all, establish any kind of a trend. It excludes the consideration of the rush of couples who jumped in immediately to get married on a whim just because it was legal. This number will radically change.

I used the term, "Homophobia" because it seems, so far, to apply. Maybe you're not. But you're exhibiting all the signs, expressing very biased opinions and quoting extremely slanted research. You're not doing much to convince anyone otherwise.

Go ahead and give us your statistics. I take it you have some. I am sure you don't have research in your education.
Slanted research is research with findings people don't want to see.

The surgeon general said life expectancy was in the 40's .. must be slanted.
Fortunately the term homophbia is a street term for name calling purposess. It isn't a genuine phobia.

[Aquila]

The issue as I see it is a necessity to balance personal liberties with the freedom of both speech and religion. If we find this balance... we'll have stablized society and the church can get back to doing what it does best... tell others about Jesus.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by coadie

The pro gay movemnt changes the subject and tries to call out inhospitality. DAII can't refer to Jude for some reason.


4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.


I say defiling the flesh is clear here and the hospitality issues are secondary.

Sir, the issue of sexual immorality was addressed and was clearly part of the the equation but your argument remains with God. God showed wrath on the city for its sin ... pride, arrogance, adultery, homosexuality, greed ... WICKEDNESS.

The problem is sin ... period. And if you've missed that ... that's a problem.

Not your pet agenda to pinpoint and focus on one. You do violence to the Word and its WHOLE COUNSEL.

Balance.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by coadie

Go ahead and give us your statistics. I take it you have some. I am sure you don't have research in your education.
Slanted research is research with findings people don't want to see.

The surgeon general said life expectancy was in the 40's .. must be slanted.
Fortunately the term homophbia is a street term for name calling purposess. It isn't a genuine phobia.

ho·mo·pho·bi·a   /ˌhoʊməˈfoʊbiə/ Show Spelled[hoh-muh-foh-bee-uh] Show IPA
–noun
unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1955–60; homo(sexual) + -phobia

—Related forms
ho·mo·pho·bic, adjective Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.

And sorry - - it's made the phobia list:

http://phobialist.com/#H-

[Aquila]

I think that if we reflect on our own sin.... we'll all be thankful that God doesn't deal with cities as he did in the OT. We'll be thankful that he approaches us individually to offer his grace and mercy. And he will deal with us individually based on our receptiveness to his offer.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by DAII

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

From God's MOUTH .... not Coadie's

God is disgusted by a nation and a Church that has abundance but is self-absorbed and often disregards the needy.

Originally Posted by crakjak

While you rag on the US, we provide by far the MOST aid to the needy in the world, no matter the crisis, no matter where in the world you will find the USA and Christians to be the very first on the scene with manpower and open wallets to rescue the needy. Your ragging sounds like the mayor of New Orleans screaming at Washington while he had 2000 buses setting idle at his disposal!!!! Fools in city hall and in the state house is the most pressing danger to this country and the world.

Didn't name a nation but if America, Madagascar or Honduras fit the bill as God was warning OT Israel of ... then so be it.

Quick on the trigger, old chap.

Appreciate the textbook talkshow tactics of quoting the good former mayor of New Orleans ...

Gets old.
Move on, Crakjak.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think that if we reflect on our own sin.... we'll all be thankful that God doesn't deal with cities as he did in the OT. We'll be thankful that he approaches us individually to offer his grace and mercy. And he will deal with us individually based on our receptiveness to his offer.

Great post.