What are you? One stepper or Three stepper

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by 1399

This would be me.

Scripture interprets scripture, correct?

The Book of Romans and the Book of Galatians, the Samaritans, Phillipine jailer and the Ethiopian eunuch all seal the deal for me.

However, the seeds of doubt were sown when I started to question the "salvific value" of the standards my brothers and sisters were following. I questioned their emphasis on them. I questioned why in a town with 6 or 7 Apostolic churches, I was told not to visit any of the other churches because they weren't really saved.

I questioned why a lady who lives in a Malaysian jungle would be so concerned, borderline broken hearted, because she didn't think her American made skirt was long enough. I questioned why the Malaysian men felt compelled to wear long sleeved shirts in the 120 degree heat of the Malaysian jungle.


My answer: BAD RELIGION. Rotten, stinking, true Gospel inhibiting BAD RELIGION that even I had once followed.

Standards and the plan of salvation are 2 different things. It's natural that there will be variations of standards among Apostolic groups, since a lot of that stuff originates from personal convictions. But there should not be variations in the plan of salvation.

If a person is solid on the plan of salvation, then differences or disagreements with the standards should not cause them to revise their salvation theology.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Standards and the plan of salvation are 2 different things. It's natural that there will be variations of standards among Apostolic groups, since a lot of that stuff originates from personal convictions. But there should not be variations in the plan of salvation.

If a person is solid on the plan of salvation, then differences or disagreements with the standards should not cause them to revise their salvation theology.

But there's the misconception. For many, that stuff does not originate as personal conviction. It originates as "this is what I'm taught so this is what I'll do because I really do love the Lord and I really do want to be with Him and so I am at this place and they say do this and they have the Lord for sure so this is what I'll do too-- then I'll have the Lord too."


Then I realized that I had been influenced by folks who had added to the Word of God by by teaching their personal standards as God-Breathed Doctrine.

Once I realized that, I started to examine every thing else-- questioning everything I had been taught and even some of the stuff I had experienced because I no longer trusted the folks who were around me.

Their intentions were not bad, I imagine.


Acts 2:38 culminates with the believer receiving the Promise of the Holy Spirit.

To hear some folks teach that chapter, you'd think that receiving the Holy Ghost was something that we all have to do ourselves.

Well it's not.

Indeed, it is something that God PROMISED He would do.

"For the Promise is unto you, and to your children, and your childrens children and to as many as the Lord our God shall call."



There's a subtle difference, but in the end it means alot.

If you begin your relationship with the Lord with the idea, "I have to do this and I have to do this and I'm not alright until I do this...." where does it stop? What else will I have to do?

We'll never be good enough, nice enough, holy enough.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by 1399

But there's the misconception. For many, that stuff does not originate as personal conviction. It originates as "this is what I'm taught so this is what I'll do because I really do love the Lord and I really do want to be with Him and so I am at this place and they say do this and they have the Lord for sure so this is what I'll do too-- then I'll have the Lord too."


Then I realized that I had been influenced by folks who had added to the Word of God by by teaching their personal standards as God-Breathed Doctrine.

Once I realized that, I started to examine every thing else-- questioning everything I had been taught and even some of the stuff I had experienced because I no longer trusted the folks who were around me.

Their intentions were not bad, I imagine.


Acts 2:38 culminates with the believer receiving the Promise of the Holy Spirit.

To hear some folks teach that chapter, you'd think that receiving the Holy Ghost was something that we all have to do ourselves.

Well it's not.

Indeed, it is something that God PROMISED He would do.

"For the Promise is unto you, and to your children, and your childrens children and to as many as the Lord our God shall call."



There's a subtle difference, but in the end it means alot.

If you begin your relationship with the Lord with the idea, "I have to do this and I have to do this and I'm not alright until I do this...." where does it stop? What else will I have to do?

We'll never be good enough, nice enough, holy enough.

Well, FAITH is "to do" as it is a proper response to God. God's Word and Works are two opposite sides of God's coin as nothing can have substance without two sides to provide depth. Thus works give substance to his Word thus faith/coin is created. There is always the what must I do. As it is clear in scripture, WALK in the light as he is in the light. Do his commandments which is one of the central tenants of the LAW and that is "love the neighbor" which covers a multitude of sins. Not all but a multitude.
If we do not respond to the leading of the Spirit we are transgressors of the law. If we follow the leading of the Spirit we are fulfilling law. Thus you will be declared friend and faithful or lawless.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Well, FAITH is "to do" as it is a proper response to God. God's Word and Works are two opposite sides of God's coin as nothing can have substance without two sides to provide depth. Thus works give substance to his Word thus faith/coin is created. There is always the what must I do. As it is clear in scripture, WALK in the light as he is in the light. Do his commandments which is one of the central tenants of the LAW and that is "love the neighbor" which covers a multitude of sins. Not all but a multitude.
If we do not respond to the leading of the Spirit we are transgressors of the law. If we follow the leading of the Spirit we are fulfilling law. Thus you will be declared friend and faithful or lawless.

"Do" is active.
The Bible is very clear about repenting.
The Bible is very clear about Baptism.
The Bible is very clear about the Name of Jesus being invoked.

"Receive" is passive.
The Bible is very clear that the believer will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost from God. If we "do", then He will "do" abundantly above what we can ask or even think. The Holy Ghost Baptism is an example of this scripture being fulfilled in the lives of Gospel Believers.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by 1399

"Do" is active.
The Bible is very clear about repenting.
The Bible is very clear about Baptism.
The Bible is very clear about the Name of Jesus being invoked.

"Receive" is passive.
The Bible is very clear that the believer will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost from God. If we "do", then He will "do" abundantly above what we can ask or even think. The Holy Ghost Baptism is an example of this scripture being fulfilled in the lives of Gospel Believers.

I would agree. The thing though is baptism is passive as well as it is not our work but his in baptism thus we receive in baptism as well by our faith in his work. If we trust in God he will give and we will receive the HS. It still takes "to do" to "receive" in all things.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Sam

I saw this and thought about this thread

I look at it and realized there is no cross in the equation.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I would agree. The thing though is baptism is passive as well as it is not our work but his in baptism thus we receive in baptism as well by our faith in his work. If we trust in God he will give and we will receive the HS. It still takes "to do" to "receive" in all things.

I disagree with your assertion that baptism is passive.

Water Baptism, invoking the Name of Jesus, is still something I must do IAW the Bible.

In order to receive, all I must do is believe, which equals faith. How do I demonstrate such faith? By my obedience to God's Word in repentance and baptism. Why do this? Because the Bible says to do this.

But realize, there is no "set formula". God did not box Himself in. He pours out His Spirit on whomever He calls. It is still incumbent on the believer to "do", according to the Bible, demonstrating his faith.

He pours it out.
God is doing the "do."
We are receiving His Spirit, on the basis of His Kindness, Mercy and Goodness-- not because we did everything just right, checked all the boxes, completed the list, etc.






Question: How do you do baptisms in your church?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by 1399

I disagree with your assertion that baptism is passive.
Water Baptism, invoking the Name of Jesus, is still something I must do IAW the Bible.

I think you miss my point and I apologize for not making myself clear.
Who is doing the work in baptism God or me? See this is a deep theological problem as you just placed your response = to God's work and that is not the case. Baptism is essential to remission of sins but it is not your work that does it but your reliance on him "to do" it. Our Faith/proper response meets God's Work. He is the author and finisher of your response. Thus God speaks his Word(author) and completes(finisher) his promise through your response. Though you may be active, you are passive in the realization of being declared loyal/righteouss/friend etc... Thus it's his glory to do so!

My point of passive is that I don't in myself wash the sins away through faith. Faith, repentance, confession, baptism etc.... does not make us righteouss. Christ's declaration make us righteouss. Just as Romans 8 points out about the Spirit bears witness to our faith/response. It's his witness or declaration that saves but faith/response is the vehicle or element that brings forth evidence for judgment. They are conditions we meet in response to the authoring of salvation by God's Word that Christ might be the finisher in declaring us righteouss/loyal/faithFULL/. Baptism is the appointed time of remission of sins through faith in the working of God. It is not our declaration in baptism but our faith in him that he delcares our response of good conscience, righteouss.

But realize, there is no "set formula". God did not box Himself in.

God is logical in all things he is not whimsical. The simple question of did you receive when you believed per Paul in Acts 19 clearly shows it is based on "faith" what the context of faith is another thing but God will answer those who call on his name thus he is boxed in. God is boxed in on everything as he is a God of law and his nature does not change. Thus he is not contrary to himself. "One must be born of water and Spirit", that is a box.

He pours out His Spirit on whomever He calls. It is still incumbent on the believer to "do", according to the Bible, demonstrating his faith.

I agree!

He pours it out.
God is doing the "do."

I agree!

We are receiving His Spirit, on the basis of His Kindness, Mercy and Goodness-- not because we did everything just right, checked all the boxes, completed the list, etc.

I would disagree "faith" is the "to do" list. What is faith? Proper response to the Gospel/Word.... Acts 2:38

Question: How do you do baptisms in your church?

Like most do it.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

If a person is solid on the plan of salvation, then differences or disagreements with the standards should not cause them to revise their salvation theology.

It happens... they go PCI

[TRFrance]

Once again I'm reminded of why I try to keep my participation in "1-stepper/3-stepper" threads to a minimum.