Martin Luther on Christian Baptism: IT SAVES!!!!!!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Adino

You cannot biblically repent (return to God) without having the heart that is returning to God convert to faith in Christ. If conversion of heart does not take place then true repentance has not occurred.

Also I agree with this but it doesn't change the argument. If you read my other posts you would clearly see this! Also the whole point if the phrase of "repent and be baptized" is simple! Turn and be united with Christ! Baptism is being united with his death! You can't fulfill repent and unless you repent. You can't fulfill repent and be baptized unless your turned to him in the heart to be baptized! So I cannot unite myself with my new master unless I have rejected the former!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Yes, through Christ is preached forgiveness. All who believe are justified of all things. Acts 13:38-39

Are you saying sin remission can't take place until Christ's name is vocalized? What kind of ancient mysticism are you promoting here, Bro.?

Remission comes not because of an invocation, it comes because the heart of man has called on Christ as his Savior. The heart of man trusts in Christ's work of salvation, it does not trust in the preacher's ability to invoke Christ's name. That would be heretical mysticism.

Then again, Catholicism is full of that sort of thing

1. ''........with the heart man believeth with the MOUTH confession is made"
thus YOU believe is a vocal confession BEFORE believing is MADE salvation. Rom. 10:10. and yes I do believe remission of sins do NOT occur for the penitent until the name is invoked in water. Acts 22:16, James 2:7, Acts 15:17.
2. NOT mysticism but acting on what Jesus said "IN MY NAME or IN THE NAME' practiced by the early church. See Acts 3 for the power in INVOKING the Name then argue with the lame man.
3. The heart is the primary agent this is where faith is exercised in confession-baptism. I do trust in the preacher's ability to SPEAK or INVOKE!!!
That is what a preacher is a SPEAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOT MYSTICISM but go into all the world and PREACH-TEACH that is invoking!!!!!!!!!!!!! Catholics invoke but the wrong baptism like Pope Luther.
This is APOSTOLIC NOT CATHOLIC.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

there is a difference between mental assent and faith!

Indeed. In fact, it is knowledge (notitia) + theoretical mental assent (assensus) + trust (fiducia). Without all three elements there is no faith. BUT when all three are present true faith does exist, and it exists first in the heart. Any action subsequent to its existence is an "act of faith" and is not faith itself. Baptism is an act of faith. It's an act bearing witness to a reality.

Your contractual argument is kind of silly when it is understood that salvation is of the spirit. You are making the physical saving. You are making the flesh saving. Nonsense.

LOL! Are you serious? Faith is in what is invoked and the meaning behind it! I respond to the authority of who and what I am being baptized in. If someone says I baptize you in the name of Satan are you going down in the water? Thus your agreement to the authority by which are baptized is realized by going down in the water! Thus confession by action!

Yet you said, "they respond to the authority of the one who invokes the name." In responding to the "authority" of the baptizer, the candidate is placing faith in the baptizer. Bottom line, baptism eis repentance (Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3) declares repentance and the object of faith the repenting heart has turned to. The act of baptism declares repentance. It declares the object of that repentance is Jesus Christ. It is a declaration of something already established in the heart. The repentant heart has turned to Christ and baptism signifies the conversion. It does not effect the conversion.... it dramatizes it.

That conversion is of the heart is clearly seen in Acts 10 where we see that Christ bestows the Spirit to the unbaptized. Are you going to tell us that Cornelius was given the earnest of his inheritance before he signed his contract?

Also I agree with this but it doesn't change the argument. If you read my other posts you would clearly see this! Also the whole point if the phrase of "repent and be baptized" is simple! Turn and be united with Christ! Baptism is being united with his death! You can't fulfill repent and unless you repent. You can't fulfill repent and be baptized unless your turned to him in the heart to be baptized! So I cannot unite myself with my new master unless I have rejected the former!

Huh?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

1. ''........with the heart man believeth with the MOUTH confession is made" thus YOU believe is a vocal confession BEFORE believing is MADE salvation. Rom. 10:10.

Yes, the heart believes unto righteousness before God who alone knows the heart (Acts 15:8) and the mouth confesses unto salvation before men. We've been over this many times.

Baptism was the time at which a candidate was to be publicly welcomed into the Church at large. Christ said he would build his Church on a confession of Him (Matthew 16:16-18). The leaders of the Church were to add to their ranks only those who had converted to Christ. Only those who would openly admit that they had converted were to be added to the Church. Baptism was the time at which this confession was made known. All those who had believed with their heart unto righteousness before God were to openly confess their faith so that their peers could acknowledge them as being saved and part of the Church. With the heart they believed unto righteousness (i.e., unto a right standing before God), with the mouth they confessed unto salvation (i.e., unto an acceptance of being saved by their peers).

and yes I do believe remission of sins do NOT occur for the penitent until the name is invoked in water. Acts 22:16, James 2:7, Acts 15:17.

So Cornelius, whose heart was purified by faith, and who received the Spirit prior to baptism had his sins removed only after he received the earnest of his inheritance? If the Spirit can reside in us without sins being dealt with.... what need of Calvary? Oh yeah, I remember.... this is where the Christianity without the Cross comes in, right?

2. NOT mysticism but acting on what Jesus said "IN MY NAME or IN THE NAME' practiced by the early church. See Acts 3 for the power in INVOKING the Name then argue with the lame man.

The name of Jesus was invoked in the NT. Agreed.

3. The heart is the primary agent this is where faith is exercised in confession-baptism. I do trust in the preacher's ability to SPEAK or INVOKE!!!
That is what a preacher is a SPEAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT MYSTICISM but go into all the world and PREACH-TEACH that is invoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Faith which exists is exercised. Agreed. Preachers preach. Again... agreed.

Sin remission comes through the mystical invocation of the name..... no, it comes through faith in the name invoked prior to the invocation.

Catholics invoke but the wrong baptism like Pope Luther. This is APOSTOLIC NOT CATHOLIC.

Be it Catholic or Mythric.... either way, heresy.

Hey, Steve. You coming up in the fall?

Mizpeh, I did not mean to hijack your thread. My apologies. I turn it back to you. Busy night ahead.

God bless, all.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Adino

Indeed. In fact, it is knowledge (notitia) + theoretical mental assent (assensus) + trust (fiducia). Without all three elements there is no faith. BUT when all three are present true faith does exist, and it exists first in the heart. Any action subsequent to its existence is an "act of faith" and is not faith itself. Baptism is an act of faith. It's an act bearing witness to a reality.

Your contractual argument is kind of silly when it is understood that salvation is of the spirit. You are making the physical saving. You are making the flesh saving. Nonsense.

Yet you said, "they respond to the authority of the one who invokes the name." In responding to the "authority" of the baptizer, the candidate is placing faith in the baptizer. Bottom line, baptism eis repentance (Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3) declares repentance and the object of faith the repenting heart has turned to. The act of baptism declares repentance. It declares the object of that repentance is Jesus Christ. It is a declaration of something already established in the heart. The repentant heart has turned to Christ and baptism signifies the conversion. It does not effect the conversion.... it dramatizes it.

That conversion is of the heart is clearly seen in Acts 10 where we see that Christ bestows the Spirit to the unbaptized. Are you going to tell us that Cornelius was given the earnest of his inheritance before he signed his contract?

Huh?

I will get back with you later as I have to do some biz.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

So faith is not in the name but in the invoker of the name?

".............how shall they hear without a preacher..."Rom.10:14-19

Faith comes by HEARING words ORALLY spoken! NOT faith in the preacher but faith in what is BEING SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All this tap dancing to get around the clear teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Jesus told the preachers to baptize IN THE NAME!!!!!!!!!!! Mt.28:19

They obeyed the command Acts 2:38, 8:12,16, 10:48, 19:5, 22:16!

Faith is obeying the preaching of the Apostles thus being baptized in the Name or having his name invoked Acts 22:16, James 2:7. Acts 15:17

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Yes, the heart believes unto righteousness before God who alone knows the heart (Acts 15:8) and the mouth confesses unto salvation before men. We've been over this many times.

Baptism was the time at which a candidate was to be publicly welcomed into the Church at large. Christ said he would build his Church on a confession of Him (Matthew 16:16-18). The leaders of the Church were to add to their ranks only those who had converted to Christ. Only those who would openly admit that they had converted were to be added to the Church. Baptism was the time at which this confession was made known. All those who had believed with their heart unto righteousness before God were to openly confess their faith so that their peers could acknowledge them as being saved and part of the Church. With the heart they believed unto righteousness (i.e., unto a right standing before God), with the mouth they confessed unto salvation (i.e., unto an acceptance of being saved by their peers).


So Cornelius, whose heart was purified by faith, and who received the Spirit prior to baptism had his sins removed only after he received the earnest of his inheritance? If the Spirit can reside in us without sins being dealt with.... what need of Calvary? Oh yeah, I remember.... this is where the Christianity without the Cross comes in, right?

The name of Jesus was invoked in the NT. Agreed.

Faith which exists is exercised. Agreed. Preachers preach. Again... agreed.

Sin remission comes through the mystical invocation of the name..... no, it comes through faith in the name invoked prior to the invocation.

Be it Catholic or Mythric.... either way, heresy.

Hey, Steve. You coming up in the fall?

Mizpeh, I did not mean to hijack your thread. My apologies. I turn it back to you. Busy night ahead.

God bless, all.

1. WRONG again we are baptized INTO Christ NOT the church. Gal. 3:27 Rom. 6:3-4 those who recieved the word was gladly baptized and the Lord added them to the church. NO ONE is IN Christ without baptism.
2. Cornelius was to be saved by WORDS Acts 11:14-15 those words INCLUDED the COMMAND of being baptized in the Name. No his sins were NOT remitted until through faith he obeyed the gospel thus was baptized in the name.
3. Faith in the name id exercised by obeying the gospel thus being baptized in the Name UNTO the remission of sins.
Apostolic NOT Catholic!
This year looks iffy right now. But who knows? If so I would love to see you again.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

".............how shall they hear without a preacher..."Rom.10:14-19

Faith comes by HEARING words ORALLY spoken! NOT faith in the preacher but faith in what is BEING SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All this tap dancing to get around the clear teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Jesus told the preachers to baptize IN THE NAME!!!!!!!!!!! Mt.28:19

They obeyed the command Acts 2:38, 8:12,16, 10:48, 19:5, 22:16!

Faith is obeying the preaching of the Apostles thus being baptized in the Name or having his name invoked Acts 22:16, James 2:7. Acts 15:17

Stop in the name of the law!

You see, Steve, one exclamation point works just as well.

The Jews asked John why he baptized people. Their question implies that he was not supposed to be doing such a thing unless he was 'the Christ,' 'Elias,' or 'that prophet.'

And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? (John 1:25)

All authority was given to Christ, men were thus commissioned to baptize by his authority. (Matthew 28:18-19)

A very strong possible meaning of the phrase "in the name of" would be a reference to the authority of Christ.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Written by DaveC: Here's what Martin Luther (you know, the guy whose battle cry was "the just shall live by faith!!!") had to say about baptism (taken from his Large Catechism):

Sounds like ML was a two stepper!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Stop in the name of the law!

You see, Steve, one exclamation point works just as well.

The Jews asked John why he baptized people. Their question implies that he was not supposed to be doing such a thing unless he was 'the Christ,' 'Elias,' or 'that prophet.'

And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? (John 1:25)

All authority was given to Christ, men were thus commissioned to baptize by his authority. (Matthew 28:18-19)

A very strong possible meaning of the phrase "in the name of" would be a reference to the authority of Christ.

NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mk. 16:17-18 "....in My Name ye shall ...lay hands on the sick" the Command.
Acts 3:6 "Peter SAID....IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ rise up and walk..."
Obeyed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Orally spoken in the name.
Mk. 16:17-18 "....In MY Name ye shall cast out devils..... the command
Acts 16: 18 ''.....Paul...SAID...I comand thee IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ to come out of her." Obeyed ORALLY spoken.
Mt. 28:19 BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME. the command
Acts 2:38 "IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST' Bauer lexcion BY MAKING MENTION OF THE NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!! Orally spoken!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!