Here is a prime example of what I'm seeing more of

[renee819]

I once wrote a book, “The Primeval Conspiracy.” In a nut shell, the book is about,

How Lucifer, conspired to take over God's Throne and was cast from his high estate into a lesser order, and is still 'the prince and power of the air.”
Remember, as Lucifer, God said of him, in Ezk that he was full of wisdom. When he fell he didn't lose his wisdom, but he corrupted it. Therefore he knows a lot about God's Kingdom and God's plans as well as how humans think.

When he showed up in the Garden, he was no longer Lucifer but God called him a serpent. He was a serpent with a plan to take over the earth. A well thought out conspiracy. And since Adam sold out to the serpent, every child born after that has the 'spirit of the devil in him, not demonic, but which is the “spirit of this world.”

That is why we must be born again. When we are born again, according to the scriptures, (not according to man's doctrine) that spirit is broken, if we want it broken. But we are no longer children of the Devil. We are the sons of God, if we are truly 'born again.

Back to conspiracies. There have been millions of conspiracies since the Garden. And every one of them is hatched up by Satan. Man may think that he is smart to conspire---whatever he conspires. But what better plan than to let man think that he is smart enough to outwit Nations, like Hitler did. Or let man think that he has come up with all kinds of slogans and witty sayings, in Music, commerce, Religion, Governments, Sports, while all of the time, Satan is sitting back laughing, because greedy men are doing his job for him, in corrupting the youth.

Yeah, you could say that I am a believer in conspiracies. Because I know who the head conspirator is. Therefore I try not to blame man, he is ignorant as to what he is participating in. The only answer is to try to help them see that the only way to get away from “the spirit of this world' is to be born again.

But sadly, I see many that are born again, not realizing the great thing that has happened to them, still desiring to live like the world.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Actually that explanation makes good worldly sense, indistinguishable from a purely natural explanation (with which I agree.) Symbols can identify our ideology or preferences--and it's human nature to want to identify ourselves.

I am not sure how my explanation is 'worldly' sense, I would call it rational, but that's just me.

My original question was the attempt to coax someone into claiming that "evil resides" or maybe that evil can reside in satanic symbols--to the detriment of the believer who dismisses the object or symbols. So far, no one here. (And that's a good thing.) Some of the apostolics I knew and loved (say in the 80s) were way more superstitious about such things. ("Superstitious" is my word for it. Their word would have been "spiritual.")

A symbol only means what it signifies. A symbol is nothing in itself, it must be invested with 'thought content' (ie, an idea, or collection of ideas) for it to have any meaning or 'significance' (see what I did there? lol).

Ideas are certainly invested with moral character - ie good or evil. Religious ideas perhaps more so than other classes of ideas. Ideas have influence on people, obviously, some more so than others.

If a person believes there are spiritual beings, forces, what have you, which operate in the spiritual, moral, mental arenas, then one would of course have to admit that ideas can (though not necessarily that they do) have spiritual associations and effects.

For example, in ceremonial magick, symbols represent forces that are invoked/evoked by the use of the symbols. One's belief in the symbol's association with it's signification certainly helps, since the power or influence of a symbol is intimately connected with the psychological association (within the mind) of the person exposed to or using the symbol, however conscious, intentional knowledge or 'belief' is not necessary for the symbol to have effect. This is because (in the ideology of ceremonial magick) the forces represented by the symbols are the forces of the subconcious mind, and the symbols therefore tend to bypass the conscious mind and 'tap into' or 'stir up' the subconscious ideas (Jung called them 'archetypes') lying below the surface of awareness.

From a Biblical perspective, the symbol itself is nothing (1 Corinthians 8). Idols are symbols, representing something else (according to Paul, they represent demons). While the idol itself is nothing, and has no power over the believer, the idea represented by the symbol is something to be shunned - 1 Corinthians 10:19-22

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?"

The word 'devils' there is the Greek word for daimons. It is interesting to put all this together when one considers that the word 'daemon' essentially refers to a mental thing -

http://richarddagan.com/daimon.php

Plato (427-347 BCE) asserts that "[a]s regards the supreme form of soul in us, we must conceive that the god has conferred it upon each ... as a guiding [daimon] — that which [...] lifts us from earth toward our celestial affinity, like a plant whose roots are not in the earth, but in the heavens".2 The concept of daimon as one's personal companion and guide emerged along these lines in the fifth century. Perhaps the best known case in point is Socrates, who credited his daimon as the source of his philosophical inspiration.

The Romans absorbed and put their own spin on a great many ideas from ancient Greece. Rollo May tells us that the daimonic was translated into Latin as genii. Genii

[...] is a concept in Roman religion from which our word "genius" comes and which originally meant a tutelary deity, an incorporeal spirit presiding over the destiny of a person, and later became a peculiar mental talent. As "genius" (its root being the Latin genere) means to generate, to beget, so the daimonic is the voice of the generative process in the individual. The daimonic is [that] unique pattern of sensibilities and powers which constitutes the individual as a self in relation to [the] world.3

So yes, demons are 'figments of the mind', but that does nothing to diminish their influence on people. To assume they (demons) are meaningless and have no effect because they reside in the mental sphere is the same as saying emotions are meaningless and have no effect because they too operate in the mental sphere.

In any event, the biblical view is that while idols (symbols) have no inherent autonomous power or meaning, they are invested with meaning by the things they signify (ideas, demons, religious ideologies, philosophies, etc), and Christians ought not to associate with or contribute to (knowingly, at least) to such things that are antithetical to the Christian paradigm.

Which goes right back to my argument regarding the dedicated anti-communist. lol

But then again, some may say I'm a bit heterodox.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am not sure how my explanation is 'worldly' sense, I would call it rational, but that's just me.

Fair enough! To me, "worldly" and "rational" can occupy the same space at the same time. The sister I quoted, however, tried to distinguish your explantion as being "not worldly" when actually many or most people of "the world" could or would fully agree that (in general) that symbols only have the meaning we invest in them and no more, such as no external demons jumping into your body and/or mind due to not giving the symbol proper distance. I'm surprised no one has tried to defend the other (to me, superstitious) viewpoint of satanic symbols--that object or symbol can and do trigger evil powers--externally thrust into your life, from not being careful enough, or something like that.

From a Biblical perspective, the symbol itself is nothing (1 Corinthians 8).

Agree, and that is why I don't understand why any bible believing Christian would need go even one inch beyond dismissing any symbol as NOTHING, or and least dismiss it as powerless once they believe it is NOTHING. The only time it becomes SOMETHING is due to supposing it is SOMETHING. And that, according to Paul, amounts to baby christian "weakness."

But there's got to be those out there who are certain that objects or symbols can "contain" evil that jumps on you if you're not careful to keep your distance. At Jackson College of Miseries, circa 1993, I recall a very fine and popular bible instructor who told the story of his African Mask. He had acquired a carved wooden African mask from a missionary trip, or vacation, or something. It had hung in his hallway (like any picture, just for decoration) for a little while. During a period of personal upheaval when everything was "going wrong" in his life, he claimed the Holy Ghost pointed out to him that the mask was demonic. After he threw away the mask, his life returned to normal. His point was to beware of satanic-infested objects, that can put a curse upon your life without you even being aware! (That's the kind of "Pentecost" I remember well.)

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Fair enough! To me, "worldly" and "rational" can occupy the same space at the same time. The sister I quoted, however, tried to distinguish your explantion as being "not worldly" when actually many or most people of "the world" could or would fully agree that (in general) that symbols only have the meaning we invest in them and no more, such as no external demons jumping into your body and/or mind due to not giving the symbol proper distance. I'm surprised no one has tried to defend the other (to me, superstitious) viewpoint of satanic symbols--that object or symbol can and do trigger evil powers--externally thrust into your life, from not being careful enough, or something like that.



Agree, and that is why I don't understand why any bible believing Christian would need go even one inch beyond dismissing any symbol as NOTHING, or and least dismiss it as powerless once they believe it is NOTHING. The only time it becomes SOMETHING is due to supposing it is SOMETHING. And that, according to Paul, amounts to baby christian "weakness."

But there's got to be those out there who are certain that objects or symbols can "contain" evil that jumps on you if you're not careful to keep your distance. At Jackson College of Miseries, circa 1993, I recall a very fine and popular bible instructor who told the story of his African Mask. He had acquired a carved wooden African mask from a missionary trip, or vacation, or something. It had hung in his hallway (like any picture, just for decoration) for a little while. During a period of personal upheaval when everything was "going wrong" in his life, he claimed the Holy Ghost pointed out to him that the mask was demonic. After he threw away the mask, his life returned to normal. His point was to beware of satanic-infested objects, that can put a curse upon your life without you even being aware! (That's the kind of "Pentecost" I remember well.)

In my experience MOST give credence to "cursed" objects.

Thankfully we have people such as these to relieve us of these cursed items!

[MarcBee]

I asked earlier, "Who gets to even decide what a satanic symbol IS--the good side or the bad side? Suppose someone has a tattoo right across forehead.
"666."
So which side was the first to claim that one? (Rev 13:7.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmToueIgoNY

[odooley6985]

My friend posted this on his facebook. The symbols are close to looking the same but at the same time vastly different. This is just religious paranoia.

[Sasha]

The swastika started out as a sign of good fortune.

If someone made me cookies shaped like swastikas, I'd still eat them as long as they had chocolate chips in them.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Sasha

The swastika started out as a sign of good fortune.

If someone made me cookies shaped like swastikas, I'd still eat them as long as they had chocolate chips in them.

I would too, Sasha, but I would question as to the reason that they made them like that. Symbols have meaning to the people that use them