THANK GOD 4 Bush Policy of Enhanced Interrogation

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

War is sometimes a necessary evil. David said that God "teaches my hands to war". Dropping the bomb on Japan was a calculated decision that was based on weighing one million American casualties to subdue a Japanese enemy that declared war on us unprovoked and undeserved and cost us tens of thousands of our American GIs versus the loss of hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives. A difficult decision for President Truman, but the right decision. Japan wouldnt even capitulate eight days after the first bomb! If the Japanese need to blame anyone it was their own Emperor and military leadership who stubbornly refused to surrender unconditionally. I would also say that in light of history the Japanese have done quite well since the end of the war, something they would not have granted to us or any of their enemies had they won. Your argument goes against the vast majority's view of history.

You think modern day Germans regret losing the war to the allies? Do you think they blame the US and the UK for the loss of life that they as a nation instigated with the evil vision of the Nazis to conquer the world? It took war to defeat evil. It still takes war to defeat evil. Pacifism would not have stopped Hitler, Imperial Japan, the Soviet Union, Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah or Al Qaeda.

And if the Japanese and Germans are so bitter towards us and our actions in WWII have set the stage for "future generations to kill us", why are they now some of our closest allies militarily and economically? You are befuddling.

And we don't "conquer" nations. We subdue evil men and leaders, and then we rebuild their nations and we hand their nations back to them at a great cost of American lives and treasure better than the way we found them. This is historical fact that cannot be denied. Tell me, who have we "conquered" in our long and glorious history of liberty and freedom?



How many pacifists have stopped people like Hitler? How many peace protestors have removed dictators and despots, imperialists and bloodthirsty men from their seats of power who lust for more land and treasure from their neighbors and their own people at the cost of many millions of lives?

Innocent people die in every war. Its unavoidable. Its unfortunate. No decent human relishes in the death of any innocent bystander. But in the big picture, less people die as a result of "just cause" wars than to allow dangerous dictators and terrorists to continue their slaughter of innocents.

And since the onset of nuclear weapons the cost of lives due to war has decreased. WWII alone brought on the death of 60 million people in less than six years. We have not seen a single war since come close to such numbers primarily because of nuclear deterrent. It is a weapon with the potential to destroy billions, yes. And this is why we must continue to fight the evil that is in the world so that they may never obtain such potential. The USA has proven that in our possession, nuclear arms are safe. The only time they have been used was when there was no other viable option in Japan in 1945.

"People like me" are the reason we are still free and the world is safer. People like you would allow the Hitlers and the Castros and the Husseins and the Stalins of the world to terrorize the world unchecked and unopposed. Yet you live in freedom and comfort because of "people like me" who are willing to die for you so you can freely express your flawed views without repercussions.



I am aware of the controversy surrounding PT. In every war, mistakes are made. I believe in the end there was no evidence that the PT controversy reached the White House.



Can you offer one shred of evidence that ANYONE of significance in power in Washington, Berlin, Paris, Moscow, London or at the UN was declaring that Hussein DIDN'T possess WMDs? You can't just accept that everyone got it wrong. Saddam Hussein will forever be one of the stupidest dictators in history. All he had to do was call the bluff---he could've called in Keith Olbermann, Al Franken, Chris Matthews, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, John Kerry, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, et al to take a tour of all of his facilities AND SHOWED THEM THE FACT THAT HE HAD NO WMDS and he would be in power today probably and definitely still alive. Yet, he continued the charade right up until the final deadline knowing that the Allies would go to war with him.

Past Bush vendettas? Really? All you got is Bush-hate? Oh yeah, ALL THAT OIL WE STOLE from the Iraqis! Look at how that worked out for us! Have you checked the gas prices lately? Where's the oil we stole?



NFSale, look, we have an elite, liberal leaning press that would love nothing more than to highlight a crumbling Iraq, filled with violence and chaos. We would have nightly stories of how Bush ushered in an age of utter destruction and lawlessness to this poor country that was harming no one before we showed up. Instead we have witnessed several free and peaceful elections, transfers of power, shared and unified governement that has pulled Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds together. The insurgency was defeated. Our troops have transferred duties to Iraqi police and military. American deaths in Iraq are at an all time low. We will be pulling out troops soon. The problem is that Bush haters wanted and demanded overnight success rather than accepting that it takes time to turn a nation like Iraq around. Your civilian death numbers are highly suspect. They mainly come from conspiracy websites and uber-left organizations that couldnt prove those numbers to save their lives. Iam sure Iraq is not a paradise, anymore than NY City is or South Central LA is, but compared to the Hussein years, a much, much better place. And liberated.

As far as my media sources, let's see, I read the USA Today almost every morning (not known for being a right wing media source), I listen to NPR many mornings at home as I fix breakfast for my kids and as I take my kids to school (about 30-45 minutes worth). I listen to Laura Ingraham in the late mornings in my car or office, Rush in afternoon in my car or office from 11-2, Sean later from 2-4 in my car or office, NPR again from 4-5. When I'm home I try to catch Chris Matthews on MSNBC, Bret Beier on Fox, OReilly on Fox. If I get up early enough I watch an hour or so of Morning Joe on MSNBC. That's not a daily lineup but throughout the week that's mostly what I listen to/watch when I do seek to find news. Occasionally I watch CNN and sometimes the first 30 minutes of the Today Show in NBC. Sometimes some events on C-Span. But often I have only time to read some of the paper and catch some things on the radio as I'm driving from one place to another. I am an info buff, but certainly not a lopsided "right wing talk radio only" kind of guy. My wife often asks me why I watch liberal on MSNBC and others (I used to watch Bill Maher when he was on ABC and Keith O when he was on MSNBC). Its because I like to hear both sides of the arguments. And the more I hear liberalarguments, the more convinced I am of conservatism and its tenets.

So you could not have been more wrong about where I get my info.[/B]



I have no personal axe to grind with you either, how could I? I dont even know you. But I am passionate about what I believe. And I am a conservative first, Republican second. And I have voted for conservative Democrats before locally and state wide. I have yet to have a chance to vote for a conservative Democrat nationally. They dont seem to get very far in the Dmeocratic Party nationally. And I am more willing to criticize Republicans when I see them abandon conservative ideals.

And I have plenty of my own opinions. But thanks for the sincere admonishment to get my own. 'Preciate it.

You're not addressing the Facts I stated concerning the future, and how War incites revenge. The Middle East is a hotbed of Revenge and Hate, and you completely avoid this Fact. Part of our draw to this part of the World is because David killed Goliath, and to this day the Jews and Muslims are at each other throats. Iran is currently advancing in Nuclear Technology, and this vendetta from the past may lead to World catastrophe in our lifetime.

The Japanese may be doing well today, but the past proves that Allies change their Political Agenda, as we've seen with Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and Muammar Gaddafi.

Again, and I repeat myself, you don't know the whole story behind Pat Tillman. This did reach the White House. There is a brand new documentary about this, and even my Ultra Conservative neighbor admits this was foul play by our Commander and Chief (My neighbor is also a 30 year Veteran from the Marines). Here is the Trailer to the movie, revealing the Facts, not some made up story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaMAVAqef7I

The World is safer because people like me spent years in the Military. I served in the U.S. Marines for 6 years. Have you served our Country??? Do you truly know what War does to our Men and Women who've watched their buddies blown to pieces?

Again, even with my prior Military Service, which adds to my experience and knowledge regarding the Truth, War is nothing but a Band-Aide, and the scars of War are leading this Earth to a total disaster. The temporary fix of War may appear to be a good thing today, but the end result is pure sadness.

Russia, China, and numerous other Countries possess WMD's, and the list is growing, and sooner or later it won't just be an M-16 or a Tank firing at one another, it will be firepower of sheer and ultimate Revenge.

As Mohandas Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind."

[Walks_in_islam]

"Baghdad's switch from the dollar to the euro for oil trading is intended to rebuke Washington's hard-line on sanctions and to encourage Europeans to challenge it.... [Pierre Shammas, a Middle East expert at the Cyprus-based Arab Press Service] says the idea of switching to the euro has appeal to Iran and Iraq because they feel if several major oil producers did it they could create a stampede from the dollar which would weaken Washington. He says another possible candidate for a changeover if the euro were strong might be Venezuela, whose relations with Washington have turned rocky as President Hugo Chavez has stressed ties with Cuba's Fidel Castro. But so far, no big stampede to the euro is on the horizon -- except in Baghdad. And that leaves Saddam once again charting a highly individual course that guarantees he keeps other capitals guessing what his next move will be."

From an article in 2000 just before the election. Iraq, by the way, at the time, didnt have any way to possibly project power in any way against the united states or any of their neighbors which did not make them a threat to us. What they did have is the ability to push a switch to trading oil in another currency which were our debt low would not effect us but because our financial stability was and is tied to bonds held by others this could have had serious repercussions.

SO: We in fact did go to war over oil trading currencies. We just didnt know we did. What is possible is that this was a coordinated effort with the actions from afghanistan to weaken us politically and economically.

We were, at the time, enjoying a very strong economy and a healthy surplus that was being (supposed to be being) used to buy back bonds and reduce our national debt. These two actions changed that and overall we are currently on the verge of currency destabilization, which weakens us fundamentally.

Our job is done in afghanistan when there is no way for those who dislike us to project their dislike onto our shores and when those responsible for what they did have paid for their mistake. There is no way for this to happen and they are all dead.

We need to look within and repair our financial damage no matter what the sacrifice and return our country to what it was and what it stood for.

We do not wish america to stand for due process and inalienable rights and have offshore prisons and interrogation centers where we do something else. That, also, weakens us to the world.

wii

Originally Posted by pelathais

We can and probably should have a continuing debate as to whether or not "water boarding" is really "torture." The very fact that it's debatable demonstrates that there is a huge difference between "water boarding" and the kinds of treatment that... say, John McCain endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese. That was torture.

As you pointed out yourself, Wii, much of the "enhanced interrogation" stuff doesn't really harm the prisoner in any permanent fashion. And from all accounts - from even journalists who have voluntarily been "water boarded" - it's just strenuous and disorienting to the point of being frightening, but no harm is done.

Comparing our "wars" today to WWII is difficult - but not for the reasons that you have offered. Remember, Afghanistan did attack us several times without us even responding in any real way until 9/11. When they attacked us (really just the rulers of Afghanistan attacked us) on 9/11 we then got serious about eliminating Afghanistan as a base for world-wide terror operations. We have been successful in doing that too, so far.

Iraq is a more difficult case. However, Saddam never complied with the terms of the 1991 ceasefire. Thus, under the Laws of War, the First Gulf War never ended. Over a dozen UN Security Council Resolutions and a Special Joint Session of Congress backed military action against Saddam.

Libya... well, that one is a bit more difficult. Qaddafi did attack US troops in Germany and he did deliberately blow up a civilian airliner over Lockerbie, Scotland. He was a big supporter of terror, but after Saddam's overthrow he also was changing his ways. I certainly don't support him being in power... but I confess that I'm not really comfortable with the way my government has handled this.

Either take him out - if the case can be made to take him out... or leave him alone and isolate his influence. C'mon! Navy SEAL Team 6 could take him out (slight exaggeration, maybe). But the Marines offshore working in conjunction with the "rebels" could certainly do the trick. Why fool around and cause more Libyan people to suffer? Either get with it or back off entirely. ... just imho.

And... we really haven't gone to war with anyone over "bundled currencies." If you are referring to Libya, even with all of their oil reserves, they're a tiny blip in regard to US trade and currency valuation. The biggest strain on the US dollar right now (outside of our own excesses as you've pointed out) is the way China, our 2nd biggest trading partner, pegs their currency to ours.

[canam]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

"Baghdad's switch from the dollar to the euro for oil trading is intended to rebuke Washington's hard-line on sanctions and to encourage Europeans to challenge it.... [Pierre Shammas, a Middle East expert at the Cyprus-based Arab Press Service] says the idea of switching to the euro has appeal to Iran and Iraq because they feel if several major oil producers did it they could create a stampede from the dollar which would weaken Washington. He says another possible candidate for a changeover if the euro were strong might be Venezuela, whose relations with Washington have turned rocky as President Hugo Chavez has stressed ties with Cuba's Fidel Castro. But so far, no big stampede to the euro is on the horizon -- except in Baghdad. And that leaves Saddam once again charting a highly individual course that guarantees he keeps other capitals guessing what his next move will be."

From an article in 2000 just before the election. Iraq, by the way, at the time, didnt have any way to possibly project power in any way against the united states or any of their neighbors which did not make them a threat to us. What they did have is the ability to push a switch to trading oil in another currency which were our debt low would not effect us but because our financial stability was and is tied to bonds held by others this could have had serious repercussions.

SO: We in fact did go to war over oil trading currencies. We just didnt know we did. What is possible is that this was a coordinated effort with the actions from afghanistan to weaken us politically and economically.

We were, at the time, enjoying a very strong economy and a healthy surplus that was being (supposed to be being) used to buy back bonds and reduce our national debt. These two actions changed that and overall we are currently on the verge of currency destabilization, which weakens us fundamentally.

Our job is done in afghanistan when there is no way for those who dislike us to project their dislike onto our shores and when those responsible for what they did have paid for their mistake. There is no way for this to happen and they are all dead.

We need to look within and repair our financial damage no matter what the sacrifice and return our country to what it was and what it stood for.

We do not wish america to stand for due process and inalienable rights and have offshore prisons and interrogation centers where we do something else. That, also, weakens us to the world.

wii

Saadaam charting a highly individual course? he already did that, thats why he is dead now.

[Walks_in_islam]

Thank you. Thats what I said. We went to war over what currency oil was being traded for. Not over rights or justice or their ability to project danger to us or anything else we (used) to stand for.

We need to be careful who we sleep with. We get germs from them. THEN crow about it when we copy their ways.

Here's your buddy Rumsfield and his chum Saddam in 1983. Thank you for billing me and my children and their children to remove what Rumsfield and company built. Ditto for Osama and his mujadeheen buddies that we funded to fight the Russians for us then funded to remove.

If you are going to mouth off for goodness sake mouth off about something that was not developed, built, funded, armed, and supported by "conservatives" and dont pretend to act stunned when we all woke up with a rash from it. Good grief.

That goes for General deacon blues as well. Talk it up some more. Its always easier to prevent someone from crashing our currency and economy than cleaning our own house. Until the chinese do it. What then? It looks like you were around during the korean war days. We just flat out ran outa bullets. LOL

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Originally Posted by canam

Saadaam charting a highly individual course? he already did that, thats why he is dead now.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

General I'm pretty sure that there are many means of torture that don't pose any "real danger to physical health" of interrogated suspects - there are some quite amusing ones that I have discovered in my overseas adventures.

Either our constitution means something or not. If not, we can go ahead and publicly declare it does not and sink to back to the depths that our founders pulled us out of. It is kindly requested that you simply keep your right hand down and dont bother to swear to uphold that document and simply don your uniform and join the rest of the "uniformed" world, dime a dozen and can be found in any country anywhere, in including torture in your list of interrogation tools. Excluding them makes us special, including them makes us no better and exactly like anyone else. We used to be special. Are you now proud that we can torture prisoners like drug lords or gangsters? Good job and muy buen jefe!

Either way, you add that to our list of tools, and you take AMERICA and what America used to be down just one more notch.

Our constitution has nothing to do with terrorists and foreign enemies. Last I checked it was written for the citizens of the USA. EI have saved thousands maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of lives. If an evil, murderous and bloodthirsty terrorist has to be uncomfortable, scared or upset, that is perfectly fine with me. And I do not believe that makes us a lesser nation. The scales of history are heavily tilted toward our kindness, benevolence and generosity to the nations and people of the world. We have proven over and over that we are a special nation and EI takes nothing away from that. It is a last resort, and used sparingly, but also to great effect as this weekend displayed.

This is war. We are fighting for our survival, the protection of our people and for our future. Its kill or be killed. Its messy and its ugly. There is no easy, clean or soft way to do it. You can fantasize about idealistic ways of defeating your enemies, but all you get for that and a $1.50 is a cup of coffee.

We are supposed to bring and example liberty, rights, self-determination to the world.

We have and we still do. Most citizens of the world would love to come to America and give it a try. Our reputation is still stellar. But we're not ever gonna win 100% of the world over to us. This isn't a high school popularity contest.

Dont you dare compare freeing Europe from Nazi Germany or freeing Asia from Japan imperialists to what we are doing today and disgrace the couragious people who did it.

We are most certainly ridding the world of evil. Remember-they came knocking on our door, just like Japan came to Pearl Harbor, like the Nazis attacked Poland, Western Europe and Russia. We don't start wars---we finish them and then we liberate the people we have defeated and hand them their nation back better than ever. Ask the average Iraqi, "How is life? Do you pine for the Saddam Hussein days?" See what kind of response you get.

Are the men and women fighting now for our protection and the liberation of the oppressed people of the Muslim world any less courageous. Don't you dare to imply they are any different!

Going to war with a country because they started using "bundled currencies" for oil trading because it devalued our currency (due to our own excessive debt and spending) is not the same thing as freeing oppressed nations. Failing to admit that our excessive spending and debt made us vulnerable to such a nation and as such undermines our fundamental security and stability is a shortcoming of our own making.

There isn't any credible evidence besides some internet links that what you say is true. There is a media that is made up of 80% liberal Democrats. Don't you think that some of them would be all over this story and would've made it headline news? Conspiracy theories are silly whether they are right wing or left wing.

Here's the historical record: Saddam Hussein attacked a neighboring country, our ally, unprovoked. We liberated them and pushed his forces back to the gates of Baghdad. We agreed to a cease fire and set up a no fly zone. The terms of the cease fire included weapons inspections. In the 12 years of the cease fire Saddam Hussein violated 17 UN Security Council Resolutions, his forces fired on our and our allies planes enforcing the no-fly zone, he continually played games with UN weapons inspectors and failed to comply with the TERMS OF THE CEASE FIRE.

I will explain a cease fire: when two entities are in armed conflict they can agree to a cease fire. That doesn't mean the war is over, it means they've stopped shooting at each other. Anything can cause firing to resume.

For 12 years SH refused to live up to the cease fire agreement. After 9/11, our patiance had run out. He had possessed WMDs before, he had pursued WMDs and he certainly acted like, never denying that he possessed WMDs. In a post-911 world, we could no longer take the chance he had them. He had harbored terrorists before. He had violated the cease fire again and again. All of the reasons in the world compelled us and our allies in conjunction with the intelligence that EVERYONE AGREED WITH, that firing should resume.

This bundled currency deal is far fetched and unproven. The above I cited is undisputed history.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

You're not addressing the Facts I stated concerning the future, and how War incites revenge. The Middle East is a hotbed of Revenge and Hate, and you completely avoid this Fact.

And what is the history of these people? Bloodshed, murder, conquering and being conquered. Revenge is woven into the very fabric of their religion, culture and upbringing. They teach their children to hate the infidels from day one. The goal of Islam is to conquer the world and for those who will not comply, kill them. We have just now begun to see how far reaching they will go in order to achieve this vision. People like you think if we leave them alone they will be glad to coexist with us on this planet. You're fooling yourself.

They came to us killing.

Part of our draw to this part of the World is because David killed Goliath, and to this day the Jews and Muslims are at each other throats.

Modern-day Israel's history is one attempt after another to make concessions and to try to live peacefully among their neighbors. History has proven that Israel's enemies have no real desire for peace, only words of peace, in order to reach their goal of the complete annihilation of the Jewish State. So Isreal defends itself, sometimes preemptively. Israel maintains a strong national defense by necessity.

Iran is currently advancing in Nuclear Technology, and this vendetta from the past may lead to World catastrophe in our lifetime.

You are not getting something. THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS! This same Iran took our US Embassy personnel hostage for 444 days, unprovoked and uncalled for. Their vendetta is written into the Koran, not for what we've done. They use politics and current events as a ruse to achieve the real goal: world domination. You doves just don't get how the world works. This isn't Martin Luther King Jr marching on Washington or Rosa Parks refusing to move to the back of the bus. This is a worldwide religious fanaticism that will come knocking on your door whether you want it or not.

The Japanese may be doing well today, but the past proves that Allies change their Political Agenda, as we've seen with Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and Muammar Gaddafi.

Again, and I repeat myself, you don't know the whole story behind Pat Tillman. This did reach the White House. There is a brand new documentary about this, and even my Ultra Conservative neighbor admits this was foul play by our Commander and Chief (My neighbor is also a 30 year Veteran from the Marines). Here is the Trailer to the movie, revealing the Facts, not some made up story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaMAVAqef7I

I'll watch it later. For the sake of arguing, if indeed the PT case was a cover up, its unfortunate. The story didn't seem to go very far if there was impeccable evidence that it was a cover up and Bush/Cheney deserved to be incriminated for it.

The world is safer because people like me spent years in the Military. I served in the U.S. Marines for 6 years.

My apologies. I salute you for your service.

Do you truly know what War does to our Men and Women who've watched their buddies blown to pieces?

My dad served in peace time, he had two brothers who fought in WWII with one being killed in Europe by the Nazis. My uncle who remains alive fought in the South Pacific and was at Iwo Jima, Guam, Saipan and Okinawa. It still affects him today when he talks about it. But he knows that it was a necessary evil.

Again, even with my prior Military Service, which adds to my experience and knowledge regarding the Truth, War is nothing but a Band-Aide, and the scars of War are leading this Earth to a total disaster.

I don't know that your military experience, although honorable, gives you more insight into current affairs any more than the rest of us. The Word of God says that although there will be wars and rumors of wars, nation rising up against nation that total destruction will not come. Jesus will come back and there will be peace on earth as mankind beats his swords into plowshares and his spears into pruninghooks.

War brings sadness yes, and there would be no need for war if there weren't any evil men in this world. But there are. And in order to live in peace and lead a quiet life, in order to preserve our way of life and to keep our children safe, good nations must be prepared to shed blood. Its a gruesome fact of life.

Russia, China, and numerous other Countries possess WMD's, and the list is growing, and sooner or later it won't just be an M-16 or a Tank firing at one another, it will be firepower of sheer and ultimate Revenge.

As Mohandas Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind."

Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. The ultimate revenge will be His. And it won't be a nuclear missle. It will be by the sound of His voice.

[Walks_in_islam]

It was already evident that our constitution has already been burned up in your mind but to me it still means something.

The currency switch to the euro was covered at length by neither republican nor democrat reporters. It was covered by european reporters before the war ever started as an interest story and there are many, many links to that announcement by the iraqi government. No-fly zone or not - there were no WMD's in Iraq after the WMD's that WE gave them were destroyed in the first war.

HINT: Arab villagers cant make stuff. The stuff that they give us problems with is usually given to them. Including Saddam's planes that we had to shoot down. He didnt have any plane factories either LOL.

I said nothing about the courage of our people in uniform today. They are as good as or better than any people in uniform anywhere in the world and I am proud to see them here and in Bahrain and in other places where I see them.
I do question the motives behind those who send them to fight especially when it looks like they are being sent not for American but business interests. I also question whether our economic stability is worth short term political image and Bush, as much as you may like him, dug us very deeply into a hole that it will be very, very difficult to dig out of and every one of us will either buckle up and pay up to dig us out and do it willingly or we will fall as a nation. Thats a fact and its time to face it.

We won the cold war without firing a shot because we bankrupted the soviets. If we think the world did not see that and say hmmmmmm.....and learn from that we are numb.

I am not in need of a history lesson from you about either Iraq or Afghanistan and iraqis are not and never have been qualified to make WMD's without some help. Here is your history lesson general and it goes nicely with my summary that you might wake up with a rash if you sleep with the wrong people and I am not interested in discussing the rash anymore:

Iran made us mad in 1979. The Reagan administration made it a policy to ensure that their neighbors in Iraq has anything they needed to kick off a 10-year war that included US companies shipping everything from arms to "insecticide precursers" (yeah, nerve gas is, in fact, simply a human insecticide and that is what insecticide is). Eventually Iraq had all they needed to kick off another war so we had to pay to take it all away from them. They did not like that so we had to pay again to change the regime.

The story of Osama and the soviets was well-covered in the 80's. I rememember what a "hero" he was. We gave them hundreds of millions in arms and training and the best thing you can do now is try to come up with an explanation for what you are typing into this forum now about "revenge" and how good you think it all turned out?

So when you have an example, one, of a recent war that we had to kick off against an enemy that we did not train, fund, and supply ourselves be my guest. Otherwise, dont try to cover up past history with recent history. Its not working with me general. Ask the guy in the attached photo. Every single American (brave American) soldier who died in Iraq died because of this handshake and every single American soldier who died in Afghanistan died because our political leaders sent weapons by the ton over there and gave some very bad people some toys. I didnt see any gun or bullet factories in Afghanistan on the news and I doubt you did either. We 'liberated' Afghanistan in the 80's. You think those people were better off? (laughing)

Dont you dare turn this into anything about the soldiers who pick up and do their jobs and go fight whenever they are asked. You need to come up with a justification about how your "conservative" administrations justify arming these people then come back a few years later and later justify pounding them back to the stone age and both were good actions.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Our constitution has nothing to do with terrorists and foreign enemies. Last I checked it was written for the citizhaens of the USA. EI have saved thousands maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of lives. If an evil, murderous and bloodthirsty terrorist has to be uncomfortable, scared or upset, that is perfectly fine with me. And I do not believe that makes us a lesser nation. The scales of history are heavily tilted toward our kindness, benevolence and generosity to the nations and people of the world. We have proven over and over that we are a special nation and EI takes nothing away from that. It is a last resort, and used sparingly, but also to great effect as this weekend displayed.

This is war. We are fighting for our survival, the protection of our people and for our future. Its kill or be killed. Its messy and its ugly. There is no easy, clean or soft way to do it. You can fantasize about idealistic ways of defeating your enemies, but all you get for that and a $1.50 is a cup of coffee.



We have and we still do. Most citizens of the world would love to come to America and give it a try. Our reputation is still stellar. But we're not ever gonna win 100% of the world over to us. This isn't a high school popularity contest.



We are most certainly ridding the world of evil. Remember-they came knocking on our door, just like Japan came to Pearl Harbor, like the Nazis attacked Poland, Western Europe and Russia. We don't start wars---we finish them and then we liberate the people we have defeated and hand them their nation back better than ever. Ask the average Iraqi, "How is life? Do you pine for the Saddam Hussein days?" See what kind of response you get.

Are the men and women fighting now for our protection and the liberation of the oppressed people of the Muslim world any less courageous. Don't you dare to imply they are any different!



There isn't any credible evidence besides some internet links that what you say is true. There is a media that is made up of 80% liberal Democrats. Don't you think that some of them would be all over this story and would've made it headline news? Conspiracy theories are silly whether they are right wing or left wing.

Here's the historical record: Saddam Hussein attacked a neighboring country, our ally, unprovoked. We liberated them and pushed his forces back to the gates of Baghdad. We agreed to a cease fire and set up a no fly zone. The terms of the cease fire included weapons inspections. In the 12 years of the cease fire Saddam Hussein violated 17 UN Security Council Resolutions, his forces fired on our and our allies planes enforcing the no-fly zone, he continually played games with UN weapons inspectors and failed to comply with the TERMS OF THE CEASE FIRE.

I will explain a cease fire: when two entities are in armed conflict they can agree to a cease fire. That doesn't mean the war is over, it means they've stopped shooting at each other. Anything can cause firing to resume.

For 12 years SH refused to live up to the cease fire agreement. After 9/11, our patiance had run out. He had possessed WMDs before, he had pursued WMDs and he certainly acted like, never denying that he possessed WMDs. In a post-911 world, we could no longer take the chance he had them. He had harbored terrorists before. He had violated the cease fire again and again. All of the reasons in the world compelled us and our allies in conjunction with the intelligence that EVERYONE AGREED WITH, that firing should resume.

This bundled currency deal is far fetched and unproven. The above I cited is undisputed history.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

It was already evident that our constitution has already been burned up in your mind but to me it still means something.

The currency switch to the euro was covered at length by neither republican nor democrat reporters. It was covered by european reporters before the war ever started as an interest story and there are many, many links to that announcement by the iraqi government. No-fly zone or not - there were no WMD's in Iraq after the WMD's that WE gave them were destroyed in the first war.

HINT: Arab villagers cant make stuff. The stuff that they give us problems with is usually given to them. Including Saddam's planes that we had to shoot down. He didnt have any plane factories either LOL.

I said nothing about the courage of our people in uniform today. They are as good as or better than any people in uniform anywhere in the world and I am proud to see them here and in Bahrain and in other places where I see them.
I do question the motives behind those who send them to fight especially when it looks like they are being sent not for American but business interests. I also question whether our economic stability is worth short term political image and Bush, as much as you may like him, dug us very deeply into a hole that it will be very, very difficult to dig out of and every one of us will either buckle up and pay up to dig us out and do it willingly or we will fall as a nation. Thats a fact and its time to face it.

We won the cold war without firing a shot because we bankrupted the soviets. If we think the world did not see that and say hmmmmmm.....and learn from that we are numb.

I am not in need of a history lesson from you about either Iraq or Afghanistan and iraqis are not and never have been qualified to make WMD's without some help. Here is your history lesson general and it goes nicely with my summary that you might wake up with a rash if you sleep with the wrong people and I am not interested in discussing the rash anymore:

Iran made us mad in 1979. The Reagan administration made it a policy to ensure that their neighbors in Iraq has anything they needed to kick off a 10-year war that included US companies shipping everything from arms to "insecticide precursers" (yeah, nerve gas is, in fact, simply a human insecticide and that is what insecticide is). Eventually Iraq had all they needed to kick off another war so we had to pay to take it all away from them. They did not like that so we had to pay again to change the regime.

The story of Osama and the soviets was well-covered in the 80's. I rememember what a "hero" he was. We gave them hundreds of millions in arms and training and the best thing you can do now is try to come up with an explanation for what you are typing into this forum now about "revenge" and how good you think it all turned out?

So when you have an example, one, of a recent war that we had to kick off against an enemy that we did not train, fund, and supply ourselves be my guest. Otherwise, dont try to cover up past history with recent history. Its not working with me general. Ask the guy in the attached photo. Every single American (brave American) soldier who died in Iraq died because of this handshake and every single American soldier who died in Afghanistan died because our political leaders sent weapons by the ton over there and gave some very bad people some toys. I didnt see any gun or bullet factories in Afghanistan on the news and I doubt you did either. We 'liberated' Afghanistan in the 80's. You think those people were better off? (laughing)

Dont you dare turn this into anything about the soldiers who pick up and do their jobs and go fight whenever they are asked. You need to come up with a justification about how your "conservative" administrations justify arming these people then come back a few years later and later justify pounding them back to the stone age and both were good actions.

Well said, WII. DB is consumed with the Political Agenda of the Limbaugh and Fox constituents. I have close friends who I debate with and they use the exact same platform to justify the American march to battle. They are also “News Junkies” with the counterparts of Rush and O’Reilly, where the Star Spangled Banner becomes propaganda. He may listen to other opinions, but he ignores the ramifications of War and where War is coming from.

Many on the "Band Wagon" of the so called "Just Cause" of killing others to obtain a momentary pause of violence, they are only pushing forward the vendetta that will end our World.

The creation of WMD's has drawn us into a countdown, and midnight is looming in the distance. What is sad is Christians see this Apocalyptic finale' as God's Judgment and their ticket out of here. God didn't create WMD's, Man did, and our mission into this Black Hole of destruction is our own doing.

I find it interesting that the first killing recorded in Scripture was out of jealousy and revenge. From that day forward even Biblical Wars carried this vile combination of cause onto the Battlefield. We galvanize the evils of genocide with reasons that tap into the emotion of a War Cry, including the use of Religion.

One more thing about War that many don't consider; those who fight on both sides of a War don't want to be there, and the only "Good Wars" are in the movies. Alls one has to do is read the Death statistics of a War and the majority of those killed are young men. Of the 50,000 killed in Vietnam, the average age was 23. Most 23 year old men have no idea what life is truly about, and many of these young men were still in their teens.

One reason the average age (27) has risen in the War with Iraq and Afghanistan, is because so many have come home with injuries that would have normally killed them in combat before. This may be a blessing in disguise, as these men and women can live to tell us about the horrors of living with no legs, arms, eyesight or severe brain trauma.

When I enlisted in the Marines, I was 17 years old. Looking around I saw nothing but kids fresh out of High School. After Boot Camp, the realities of who and what the Military life is about struck me, and most of the men serving couldn't wait to get out. Being in the Military is far different than people realize and the Battlefield is the last place they wanted to go to.

To be honest, I laugh when people who've never served are shouting praise about the Hero's who are dying and fighting, when Heroism is the last thing on a Soldiers mind; he just wants to go home and leave the madness of War behind him. There are some good films that bring this out, and "The Pacific" done by HBO is a very good depiction about the agony and scars of War.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Like pigeon?

I just remembered where I read about the method.

Why It Took So Long to Get Bin Laden

Bin Laden had been relying on a human-based courier system modeled on the one used by the famous Muslim leader Saladin against the Crusaders back in the 11th Century. Bin Laden idolized Saladin and patterned his life after him. Muslims, back then, were advanced users of ciphers or secret codes to relay military information. The coded messages were carried by couriers on horse back or camel. The complexities of Arabic script made these ciphers virtually uncrackable.

The European knights who fought the Muslims picked up on the practice, leading to the creation of the modern science of cryptography.

Relying on couriers and codes involved the use of so-called asymmetrical warfare by Bin Laden.

Asymmetrical warfare focuses on turning your enemy’s chief advantage into a liability. It also involves turning your own inferiority in things military into an asset.

Bin Laden knew that the U.S., with his tech-centric surveillance systems, was helpless to detect and monitor a medieval courier system that didn’t rely on microcircuits or the Internet.

http://blogs.investors.com/click/ind...-get-bin-laden