Where is the five fold ministry?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

One faith

I am amazed how we will take what we have been taught as the final word of God with out taking time to truly look for ourselves. Don't get mad at me I am only saying what I have been telling myself over the past couple of year as I come to see just how much Christians have been duped by the traditions of men. You see we have been told for hundreds of years by the RC that only the priest have the power to understand scripture and interprete it. This has still been passed down to some degree to the ministry today. But I beleive my bible that says "seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling", and "study to show thyselves approved a workman that does not need to be ashamed".

As we have been taught by those in years past and passed down over several generations we see what we have been told. Take a closer look with out taking the verses out of context with the rest of the chapter. Paul in no where making a distinction between apostles, prophets,or pastors. As a matter of fact he does not even mention pastors anywhere but in the one passage of Ephesians 4. This whole chapter is teaching the various spiritual gifts of God.

I am not going to go into more detail as it is not my intent to change your mind. God must do that all I can do is put out there what I see and leave God to prove or disprove what I have said. "truth will prevail". I have not ax to grind. Some times it is fun to argue to sharpen our sword. But there comes a time when we must step back and let Gods spirit do the work. This is where we make the mistake and one of the faults I see in the way our ministerial authority is wrong. We think we must change everyone to fit based on what we see as sin. This puts the ministry between the body and the head, Christ. We don't need two heads, the spirit is well able to function through the gifts God has placed in the body, without the offices we call pastorial.

Think about it this way, If Christ is the head and we are the body, tell me what part of the body do you find the so called authoritive ministry? They are not the head as Christ is the head.

God has already led me to this truth. No church duped me into believing it. You see I SEARCHED just like you! I questioned this faith JUST like you. God led me back to the truth. I've studied just about every major denomination and belief. I didn't start apostolic, I started southern baptist where deacons and church boards rule.

The apostles had a higher office than the rest my friend. Paul even mentions though he were great as he was, he is nothing. Bro if you can't see that there are ministry offices and then there is laity, we are not looking to the same eyes of the Spirit. There has always been a ministry that is accountable for God for our souls. There always will. Don't make your spiritual leader grieve when he has to give an account for you. We must understand we have Christ as our head and then we have spiritual leaders that are NOT HIGHER than us, but are there to LEAD us.

THE OFFICE is what we respect, not the man himself.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

God has already led me to this truth. No church duped me into believing it. You see I SEARCHED just like you! I questioned this faith JUST like you. God led me back to the truth. I've studied just about every major denomination and belief. I didn't start apostolic, I started southern baptist where deacons and church boards rule.

The apostles had a higher office than the rest my friend. Paul even mentions though he were great as he was, he is nothing. Bro if you can't see that there are ministry offices and then there is laity, we are not looking to the same eyes of the Spirit. There has always been a ministry that is accountable for God for our souls. There always will. Don't make your spiritual leader grieve when he has to give an account for you. We must understand we have Christ as our head and then we have spiritual leaders that are NOT HIGHER than us, but are there to LEAD us.

THE OFFICE is what we respect, not the man himself.

Don't know how old you are or how you have studied, as I don't know, so I will only tell my experiance. I have been raise in church my whole life, I too studied all through my life I knew what I preached and taught, everytime I studied I too was made firm in what I was taught everytime. As I was still seeing through the eyes of denominalism. It was not till I was shaken from the idea that I could be wrong did I look at things from a differant point of view.

It was after this that I began to see things from a differant light. This was 20 years ago. I have not come to my understanding overnight, it was line upon line precept upon precept here a little there a little and still adding as each day goes by.

With that said you did not address what part of the body compose your (offices of leadership) if Christ is the head and we are the body, what part of the body is the offices of leadership?

You still miss the point, elders and decons did not control the church they took care of the administration responsibilities ie taking care of the widows, homeless, etc. Gods spirit ran the church through the gifts of ministry/spirit.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

As the scripture says God has put his laws into our hearts that no man needs to teach his neighbour. For all know him from the least to the greatest. If you deney this than you deny the power of the Holy Ghost to lead and guide all in the word of God. And you deney Jesus came to confirm the covenant with the house of Isreal. And by his death all can come to him for salvation, Jew and Gentile alike. For we all are the body of Christ. Everyone that confesses Jesus has come in the flesh.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Don't know how old you are or how you have studied, as I don't know, so I will only tell my experiance. I have been raise in church my whole life, I too studied all through my life I knew what I preached and taught, everytime I studied I too was made firm in what I was taught everytime. As I was still seeing through the eyes of denominalism. It was not till I was shaken from the idea that I could be wrong did I look at things from a differant point of view.

It was after this that I began to see things from a differant light. This was 20 years ago. I have not come to my understanding overnight, it was line upon line precept upon precept here a little there a little and still adding as each day goes by.

With that said you did not address what part of the body compose your (offices of leadership) if Christ is the head and we are the body, what part of the body is the offices of leadership?

You still miss the point, elders and decons did not control the church they took care of the administration responsibilities ie taking care of the widows, homeless, etc. Gods spirit ran the church through the gifts of ministry/spirit.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

As the scripture says God has put his laws into our hearts that no man needs to teach his neighbour. For all know him from the least to the greatest. If you deney this than you deny the power of the Holy Ghost to lead and guide all in the word of God. And you deney Jesus came to confirm the covenant with the house of Isreal. And by his death all can come to him for salvation, Jew and Gentile alike. For we all are the body of Christ. Everyone that confesses Jesus has come in the flesh.

God's apostles took care of leading the church. Bishops lead while they were away. Deacons seemed to also be examples in business etc. The idea of offices within the body did not come from the RC church. It came by the ordination of Jesus Christ and his apostles. The disciples were part of the body, but they were specially called to a higher calling. Do you deny that? I can't believe you can read the same Bible as me and not see that.

How old am I physically or in the Lord? Does it matter? How many theological degrees I have? Does it matter ( I do have one but its all but dung compared to CHrist)? The point is you are speaking as if going away from apostolic belief is the truth. While the other hand God lead me back to this truth. So either we serve different gods or one of us is wrong. Either way we BOTH have to come to the full measure of the stature of Christ Jesus.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

God's apostles took care of leading the church. Bishops lead while they were away. Deacons seemed to also be examples in business etc. The idea of offices within the body did not come from the RC church. It came by the ordination of Jesus Christ and his apostles. The disciples were part of the body, but they were specially called to a higher calling. Do you deny that? I can't believe you can read the same Bible as me and not see that.

Yes I do deny that!!! Show me where in the Book of Acts they took the authority to straighten the church out. Chapter 15 is not an example of the kind of authority we are talking about either. This was not one apostle laying down the law. This was a councle of all the elders, apostles to lay to rest the dispute that arose from legalistic factions of the Jew that wanted the gentiles to be required to come under the law of Moses. And the decision was made by all of them not just one.

How old am I physically or in the Lord? Does it matter? How many theological degrees I have? Does it matter ( I do have one but its all but dung compared to CHrist)? The point is you are speaking as if going away from apostolic belief is the truth. While the other hand God lead me back to this truth. So either we serve different gods or one of us is wrong. Either way we BOTH have to come to the full measure of the stature of Christ Jesus.

I only said what I said about age to let you know I was not trying to assume or acuse you of being anything as I don't know you there was no hidden meaning. As for going away from apostolic truth, I don't think I have. If anything I have gotten closer to God and his word. As for apostolic truth if you mean you must repent and be baptized in Jesus name and speak in tongues as evidence you have the holy ghost in order to be saved?

Salvation is by faith believing in the work of the cross. From there we go on to grow in Christ obeying the command to be baptized calling on the name of Jesus, showing our commitmet to God. Allowing Gods spirit to take full control of our hearts and lives from the inside out. If that is not apostolic enough for you I guess we don't see eye to eye. But I can live with that, can you?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I only said what I said about age to let you know I was not trying to assume or acuse you of being anything as I don't know you there was no hidden meaning. As for going away from apostolic truth, I don't think I have. If anything I have gotten closer to God and his word. As for apostolic truth if you mean you must repent and be baptized in Jesus name and speak in tongues as evidence you have the holy ghost in order to be saved?

Salvation is by faith believing in the work of the cross. From there we go on to grow in Christ obeying the command to be baptized calling on the name of Jesus, showing our commitmet to God. Allowing Gods spirit to take full control of our hearts and lives from the inside out. If that is not apostolic enough for you I guess we don't see eye to eye. But I can live with that, can you?

As long as you go on to understand we are not "saved" until we enter heaven, it would be no problem with me. That in essence is the truth we all face, no matter what denomination we reside in. I cast my lot with the UPC for now.

The old song, He is still working on me rings truer and truer.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

As long as you go on to understand we are not "saved" until we enter heaven, it would be no problem with me. That in essence is the truth we all face, no matter what denomination we reside in. I cast my lot with the UPC for now.

The old song, He is still working on me rings truer and truer.

God never stops working on us, but that has nothing to do with our salvation.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When one is so wrapped up in the works of salvation (OT) they are to involved with thier laws to have relationship with God.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

God never stops working on us, but that has nothing to do with our salvation.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When one is so wrapped up in the works of salvation (OT) they are to involved with thier laws to have relationship with God.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Nothing that we do can save us. IT is his work in Us by his grace that we are saved. When he teaches us how to live, we are empowered by his grace to do it, not by our own power.

Your wrong my brother. Sanctification has everything to do with our salvation, for it is our Salvation in working progress!

[Godsdrummer]

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Should not perish.. however there will be those that believe in him that will

Matthew 7:21-24

We are justified by grace through faith, baptized into Christ's death by baptism, quickened by the HG baptism, sanctified to love God and love people.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

As long as you go on to understand we are not "saved" until we enter heaven, it would be no problem with me. That in essence is the truth we all face, no matter what denomination we reside in. I cast my lot with the UPC for now.

The old song, He is still working on me rings truer and truer.

What a flimsy and fragile way to view your faith, OF.

I trust solely in the faithfulness of God. We are His and He is ours. We are His sheep... today, now, this moment. Not in a time to come. We have both received an deposit and will look forward to becoming fully redeemed at the final resurrection. Already/not yet eschatology... the primary theological point of Pauline theology.

His "working on me to make me what I ought to be" isn't to save me, it's to sanctify me. Those two can't be confused.