I respect your position. However, your position would be one where a person wholeheartedly, sincerely surrenders their life to Jesus Christ. Truly repents. Has a drastic change of life and receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, and is mightily used of God AND has been baptized in water and lives an overcoming life. AND if that person has not been baptized in Jesus' name, your position puts them in hell.
I'm sorry, the God whom I've served all these years would never pull such a dastardly trick on someone like that. But that's just my opinion.
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Originally Posted by TheLegalist
you should always be fearful and humble when in judgment.
Sorry, again, I have not an "ounce" of fear of where I'm headed when this life is over. I do not hold that position in pride in any way. I hold that position in the full confidence of the One who is able "keep me until that day." I hold His promises dear and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I were to leave this world today, I would be with Him forever!! I don not intend to just make it in. I am fully trusting in what He did for me, not in what I do in response to what He did for me.
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"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
Yet it is very much a performance based religion.... endurance IS performance! Mercy and Grace doesn't negate performance. Jesus clearly teaches judgment by deeds unto eternal life which is faithfulness.
If you are saved, than the fruits of that salvation will follow.
There is, there just has to be away, to bring people to a place of bearing spiritual fruit without beating them over the head with standards, guilt and all sorts of unbiblical manipulation.
What He did for us was out of love.
What we do for Him should be out of love as well.
Furthermore, though spiritual fruit MUST follow, the spiritual fruit isn't the salvation-- it's a result of the salvation.
This is the difference in my mind from a Biblical salvational relationship with Christ, and the religiosity I've seen displayed by way too many people, sometimes even in me.
In the traditional, denominal "Apostolic" presentation of the Gospel, we set many of our new converts up for failure by presenting the Gospel in a way where they always have to do this, that or the other and this is not Biblical and often we make folks worst devils than they were before they walked in our doors.
The only thing we must have to start, to initiate our saving reltionship with Christ is have Biblical faith in God, Our Savior.
There is no such thing as partial salvation, half salvation. Either a person is saved or not saved. The Bible teaches that a person is saved by Grace, through faith.
That is where our focus should be and that is where I see it is not within the Apostolic ranks I have been exposed to.
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"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
I respect your position. However, your position would be one where a person wholeheartedly, sincerely surrenders their life to Jesus Christ. Truly repents. Has a drastic change of life and receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, and is mightily used of God AND has been baptized in water and lives an overcoming life. AND if that person has not been baptized in Jesus' name, your position puts them in hell.
I'm sorry, the God whom I've served all these years would never pull such a dastardly trick on someone like that. But that's just my opinion.
Sorry, again, I have not an "ounce" of fear of where I'm headed when this life is over. I do not hold that position in pride in any way. I hold that position in the full confidence of the One who is able "keep me until that day." I hold His promises dear and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I were to leave this world today, I would be with Him forever!! I don not intend to just make it in. I am fully trusting in what He did for me, not in what I do in response to what He did for me.
"Dastardly" is a matter of opinion.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I respect your position. However, your position would be one where a person wholeheartedly, sincerely surrenders their life to Jesus Christ. Truly repents. Has a drastic change of life and receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, and is mightily used of God AND has been baptized in water and lives an overcoming life. AND if that person has not been baptized in Jesus' name, your position puts them in hell.
I'm sorry, the God whom I've served all these years would never pull such a dastardly trick on someone like that. But that's just my opinion.
Sorry, again, I have not an "ounce" of fear of where I'm headed when this life is over. I do not hold that position in pride in any way. I hold that position in the full confidence of the One who is able "keep me until that day." I hold His promises dear and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I were to leave this world today, I would be with Him forever!! I don not intend to just make it in. I am fully trusting in what He did for me, not in what I do in response to what He did for me.
We do have confidence IN HIS FAITHFULNESS! The question is ours! Can he keep you? Sure he does as he is not negletful toward you as that is a point of his faithfulness to do what he said HE would do to give you the ability to do IF you choose to do what he wants. The contract is two sided. You have a responsibility to respond. either you are enduring and pressing to obtain or not. If you are not conerned about your response then you have major theological issues and are walking contradiction to what you previously said even at the smallest level.
Last edited by TheLegalist; 03-29-2010 at 01:52 PM.
I've decided to "hedge my own bets" on this one by confessing that there's no way I could ever be worthy. Nothing I do and nothing that any other human being could ever do for me will be good enough to allow me to stand in that day.
Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus will be doing both the judgment and "presenting" the defense. I trust that He has it all worked out to bring the greatest amount of glory to His righteousness and joy to His church.
If you are saved, than the fruits of that salvation will follow.
This is true if your heart is turned toward him. That does not mean those who have been saved cannot become lukewarm or cold.
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There is, there just has to be away, to bring people to a place of bearing spiritual fruit without beating them over the head with standards, guilt and all sorts of unbiblical manipulation.
let's deal with the basic principles of righteousness when it comes to this discussion. They are necessary to be judged "righteous" and "faithful" in the end just as Abraham was.
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What He did for us was out of love.
Amen!
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What we do for Him should be out of love as well.
Amen, but it is also obligation!
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Furthermore, though spiritual fruit MUST follow, the spiritual fruit isn't the salvation-- it's a result of the salvation.
Again as I have pointed out several times on this board. Salvation is a BROAD word of context. Are we talking about eternal life or are we talking about salvation or intial saving from our sins unto covenant. Many aspects to this discussion. I don't believe initial repentance brings about a eschatological acquittal.
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This is the difference in my mind from a Biblical salvational relationship with Christ, and the religiosity I've seen displayed by way too many people, sometimes even in me.
I would agree.
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In the traditional, denominal "Apostolic" presentation of the Gospel, we set many of our new converts up for failure by presenting the Gospel in a way where they always have to do this, that or the other and this is not Biblical and often we make folks worst devils than they were before they walked in our doors.
won't disagree on that but I will say there are requirements in this relationship of covenant. It's not a free ride and your reponse will determine the final judgment.
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The only thing we must have to start, to initiate our saving reltionship with Christ is have Biblical faith in God, Our Savior.
Faith is a varied meaning among everyone but I agree.
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There is no such thing as partial salvation, half salvation. Either a person is saved or not saved. The Bible teaches that a person is saved by Grace, through faith.
A person is saved in respect of "current" standing toward God or "righteous" but one has not obtained judgment unto eternal life until the end by which God will judge everyman according to his deeds.
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That is where our focus should be and that is where I see it is not within the Apostolic ranks I have been exposed to.
I've decided to "hedge my own bets" on this one by confessing that there's no way I could ever be worthy. Nothing I do and nothing that any other human being could ever do for me will be good enough to allow me to stand in that day.
Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus will be doing both the judgment and "presenting" the defense. I trust that He has it all worked out to bring the greatest amount of glory to His righteousness and joy to His church.
sorry but you won't be pleading anything. Your works will be your plead and your judgment! Your covering IS YOUR DEEDS!
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
hmmm don't think this works out for your argument!
Sorry TL, you can't shake my confidence in Jesus! What was "the word of their testimony?" Revelation 12:17 helps us with that. (This is also something you "legalists" like to avoid - the Commandments of God - Acts 15:10-20)
And the fact that... "Their testimony" IS JESUS CHRIST!
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Originally Posted by TheLegalist
I guess Abraham was not judged worthy or just to obtain the promise he received either right? LOL!
That is the most baffling statement that I've read today.
We do have confidence IN HIS FAITHFULNESS! The question is ours! Can he keep you? Sure he does as he is not negletful toward you as that is a point of his faithfulness to do what he said HE would do to give you the ability to do IF you choose to do what he wants. The contract is two sided. You have a responsibility to respond. either you are enduring and pressing to obtain or not. If you are not conerned about your response then you have major theological issues and are walking contradiction to what you previously said even at the smallest level.
I disagree in that my confidence is NOT is my performance. I do not fear my performance. It is not and never will be perfect. However, I have full confidence that He will keep me. Certainly, I must continue to yield to Him and I have utmost confidence that He will continue to answer my prayer that He strengthens me to do that. My confidence is not in MY will power, but in His keeping power. I am not concerned about my response in that respect. I do NOT believe that I can live any way that I want to and make heaven my home. However, when I make it, (and I will beyond a shadow of a doubt) it will be because of His grace and mercy.
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"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
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