Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71  
Old 04-26-2007, 02:48 PM
BoredOutOfMyMind's Avatar
BoredOutOfMyMind BoredOutOfMyMind is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In a cold dark cave.....
Posts: 4,624
Oneness vs. Trinitarian Pentecostals: Healing The Great Divide

April 23, 2007

By Andrew Degraffenreed

Most people know that Trinitarian and Oneness Pentecostals have a common ancestry. I refer to their mutual beginning only to remind the reader that the, “Men who had preached, prayed, and served together from the beginning of the Azusa Street outpouring were now unalterably divided.”a If they have done all these things together in the past, is there any chance that they can once again stand side-by-side in worship and preaching?

In the Beginning

Not all of the men in the Oneness camp wanted to see this division occur; A.D. Urshan wrote, “In fact, some of them urged us to send a letter to both sides, [Oneness and Trinitarian camps] which we did, and in which we declared our natural stand regarding doctrines of baptism, and the Diety [sic] of Jesus Christ.” This was 16 years after A.D. Urshan began baptizing new converts exclusively in the name of Jesus.bc Even as late as the mid 1960’s my father recalls hearing A.D. Urshan preach at a Trinitarian assembly in Farmersville, California. Talmadge French asserts that “Urshan attempted a total posture of neutrality throughout the debate within the Assemblies of God, including the expulsion of the Oneness proponents in October 1916. His outstanding and successful ministry was in increasing demand throughout the Assemblies of God, as well as churches throughout the Oneness movement”

Just as the doctrine of the Trinity took several hundred years before it was developed into the doctrine that we have today, Oneness theology was still developing and going through changes. In speaking about the “Mystery,” G.T. Haywood writes, “Almost anyone that is able to read at all can take up the Bible and see, what is apparently, ‘three persons’.”d A.D. Urshan wrote “Our God’s Divine – The Triune God was manifested or brought forth in One Person – Jesus (1), Christ (2), The Lord (3). To me, this was indeed a wonderful revelation of the Triunity of Christ”e He continues, “This blessed revelation of Christ’s absolute Deity has been THE [emphasis his] crowning truth of all other portions of truth that the Lord has so graciously granted me, unworthy as I am.f These would not be a normal explanation of Oneness understanding today.


A Wedge Between Us

While G.T. Haywood clearly taught that salvation came through repentance, baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues,g he also had this to say, “The one question that is so often asked is, ‘are all those people who thought they were born of the Spirit, and were not, lost?’ No, not by any means.”h Dr. Raymond Crownover had this to say about the merger of the PAJC and the PCI to form the UPCI, “A small minority of PCI [Pentecostal Churches Inc.] and a vocal portion (possibly a majority) of PAJC [Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ] ministers preached “Holy Ghost or Hell” (the old timer’s term for a doctrine that anyone not baptized in the name of Jesus and not evidencing Spirit baptism by speaking in tongues was damned, perhaps better referred to as the “No Mercy” position).”i

Responses from both David K. Bernard and Crownover lament the labeling of Oneness groups as cults.j However, Crownover, does not lay all the blame on others, pointing out that we have added to the perception with “the cultic practices of some [emphasis mine] Apostolic pastors combined with the knee-jerk tendency to label any questioning of Apostolic practices and doctrines as heretical. We are, indeed, our own worst enemies and much of the negative things Trinitarians say about us, when we examine them honestly, prove to be true of at least a minority [emphasis mine] of those we call brother.”k

One of the themes that seems to run through all of the responses is that no one likes labels, or being called names, yet we continue to do it. The practice of erroneously describing the Oneness view of the Godhead as “Jesus Only”, and referring to Trinitarians as tritheists, has the effect of driving a wedge of separation between the two groups.


Obstacles to Overcome

The first issue is two parts: lack of understanding and deliberate misrepresentation. Lack of understanding can be dealt with by opening doors of communication. “Oneness believers often accuse Trinitarians of believing in three gods, while Trinitarians often counter with claims that Oneness believers deny the Father. While it may be true that some who call themselves Trinitarians are actually Tritheists, the vast majority are not,l” Crownover said. In all fairness we should also say that, while some who call themselves Oneness do deny the Father, most do not.

“Instead of focusing on philosophical arguments, historical opinions, creedal formulations, non-biblical terminology, and derogatory labels, perhaps Oneness and trinitarian [sic] theologians could profit from dialogue that could erase some misconceptions, correct some mutual imbalances, and encourage greater attention to a more strictly biblical theology,”m Bernard stated. It is unfortunate that even in a call for more dialogue there is, what appears to be, blatant attacks on the Trinitarian position, with the lack of capitalization and the inference that the term “Trinity” is non-biblical terminology and should therefore be excluded from doctrine. I wonder if we would be as willing to discontinue the use of the word “Oneness” on the same grounds?
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 04-26-2007, 02:48 PM
BoredOutOfMyMind's Avatar
BoredOutOfMyMind BoredOutOfMyMind is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In a cold dark cave.....
Posts: 4,624
The second issue is the self-inflicted wound of isolation. “Oneness Pentecostals have purchased much of the negative feelings about themselves by becoming so isolationist and anti-intellectual. This isolationism is beginning to crumble.”n This is true and there are a number of reasons for this. One that is often overlooked is the Internet. Some Internet sites facilitate discussion among various Oneness groups, thereby breaking down many of the walls of tradition that cannot be backed up with Scripture. Many Oneness ministers have been, and are currently, attending universities whose theological perspective is decidedly Trinitarian, and, in some cases, decidedly non-Pentecostal.

This is a positive thing, as Oneness people are no longer isolated in a corner with no challenge to their doctrines and no voice in the religious community. Dr. Crownover pointed out that, “The birth of Urshan Graduate School of Theology is probably the single most important step in creating more positive relations. As a result, Oneness theology can now begin the long process of being translated into the language of theological scholarship, and Trinitarian scholars will increasingly be able to draw upon a body of literature produced under the careful rules of academia.”o


Forever Divided?

It seems clear that in order to get past the first hurdle there must be a spirit of forgiveness, both in giving and receiving. There is no doubt that both sides felt victimized and demonized. One can admit a wrong attitude without giving up their doctrinal position. Many of the problems between the two groups have been rooted in attitude rather than theology.

What we have in common first, and foremost, is a common Pentecostal experience. When we examine the historical path that led us to where we are today, we come to the same people and places at the beginning of the 20th century. Both groups recognize the Deity of Christ, but with different perspectives. If we are to discuss the way we interpret Scripture on this subject, we may need to invent or borrow neutral terms that do not have the baggage that currently goes along with each position. When Trinitarians defend their position, the tendency is to stress distinctions or separation in the Godhead, thus leading to the accusations of tritheism. When the Oneness side answers back, the stress is on the unity of the Godhead, specifically in Jesus (“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” Colossians 2:9, NASB), thus leading to accusations of denying the Father. So the pendulum continues to swing from extreme to extreme.


Apart from the doctrines on the Godhead, probably the biggest mountain is the teaching on salvation. This is particularly tricky because most inside the UPCI teach that one must be baptized in Jesus name and receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues in order to follow the New Testament plan of salvation (Acts 2:38). There are also those who hold to the Oneness view that, while baptizing in Jesus name and believing in the Pentecostal experience of speaking in tongues, do not see the last two as essential to salvation. In reference to this view Bernard had this to say, “It is indisputable that a minority of Oneness ministers in the UPC and outside the UPC have believed that the new birth occurs at repentance only. However, this view has indeed been a minority. Within the UPC it is lessening, although it may be increasing outside the UPC.”p

I do not believe that the walls of separation can ever be completely broken down between Oneness and Trinitarian Pentecostals due to the doctrine of salvation held by many inside Oneness circles. On the doctrine of the Godhead, however, there is plenty of room for improvement in relations. In the area of attitudes, specifically with regard to a feeling of spiritual superiority, there are many things that can be done to improve relationships. One of the things that will continue to break down walls of separation is to stand together on issues that we have in common through our shared Christian values and Pentecostal experience.

Finally, by showing common courtesy when speaking before diverse groups, we avoid building unnecessary walls of separation.

ninetyandnine.com
© 2007, Andrew Degraffenreed

Andrew Degraffenreed lives just outside the DC beltway with his wife and kids, while completing an externship at the American Center for Law and Justice in DC and preparing for the bar exam. He can’t wait for global warming, as this winter was far too cold.

End Notes
aJames L. Tyson, The Early Pentecostal Revival (USA: Word Aflame Press, 1992),176.
b Andrew Bar David Urshan, The Life of Andrew Bar David Urshan (Portland, Oregon: Apostolic Book Publishers, 1982), 180.
c Talmadge L. French, 75.
d G.T. Haywood, 64.
e Andrew Bar David Urshan, 102.
f Ibid.
g G.T. Haywood, The Life and Writings of Elder G.T. Haywood (Portland: Apostolic Book Publishers, 1984), 22
h Ibid, 19.
i Raymond Crownover “Christianity without the Cross” to Andrew Degraffenreed. 13 April 2004..
j David Bernard “Oneness Relations” to Andrew Degraffenreed 5 March 2004. Raymond Crownover “Oneness Relations” to Andrew Degraffenreed 26 February 2004.
k Raymond Crownover “Oneness Relations” to Andrew Degraffenreed 26 February 2004.
l Raymond Crownover ,“Oneness Relations”to Andrew Degraffenreed. 26 February 2004.
m David K. Bernard, The Oneness view of Jesus Christ (USA: Word Aflame Press, 1994), 153.
n Ibid
o Raymond Crownover “Oneness Relations,” to Andrew Degraffenreed. 26 February 2004.
__________________
I am not a member here -Do not PM me please?
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 04-26-2007, 02:50 PM
chaotic_resolve chaotic_resolve is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
Bleh, can't get past the terrible paragraph editing, large margins and stuff. I'll copy it to MSWord and read it later.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 04-26-2007, 02:57 PM
MrsMcD's Avatar
MrsMcD MrsMcD is offline
Prayerful lives are powerful


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,711
Thanks BOOM. That's much better.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 04-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Jack Shephard's Avatar
Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
Strange in a Strange Land...


 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Island
Posts: 5,512
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve View Post
Bleh, can't get past the terrible paragraph editing, large margins and stuff. I'll copy it to MSWord and read it later.
As you wish. Yeah it took me a while to read. Structure was reeally weird
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 04-26-2007, 04:18 PM
BoredOutOfMyMind's Avatar
BoredOutOfMyMind BoredOutOfMyMind is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In a cold dark cave.....
Posts: 4,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMcD View Post
Thanks BOOM. That's much better.
We should get Bro Kent Curry to join here.
__________________
I am not a member here -Do not PM me please?
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 04-26-2007, 04:18 PM
Whole Hearted Whole Hearted is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
How many times do you have to be told Acts 2:38 is not THE Message it is our response to the Message?
Acts 2:28 is the ONLY saving message.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 04-26-2007, 04:21 PM
Chan
Guest


 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whole Hearted View Post
Acts 2:28 is the ONLY saving message.
Since Jesus never preached Acts 2:38, He never preached a saving message?
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 04-26-2007, 04:24 PM
Whole Hearted Whole Hearted is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
My definition of fellowship evidently is much more narrow than yours for the past week and 1/2 I have been to the river everyday trying to comfort a family who are standing on the banks trying to find a loved one who fell in. He was not saved he was a Baptist they are not saved including their lying preacher I am NOT fellowshipping them I am doing what Jesus did. HOWEVER if I was attending their services hearing that lying false profit preach and inviting him over and putting him on my platform then I would be fellowshipping him.
I eat with sinners, hypocrites, and lying false profits but I have NEVER given them the idea I think they are saved. But I am civil-cordial-friendly and believe it or not his town thinks I am a nice guy. But I have NOT compromised for family and I am not compromising for anyone else's family. This is way to serious for me it has eternal consequences.
Besides the forum was a dull as watching grass grow and this picked it up.
I agree with you. It is one thing to reach for the lost and quit another to sit and listen to a false preacher.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 04-26-2007, 04:25 PM
Actaeon Actaeon is offline
Some people could make a statue weep


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 314
How embarrassing (Chan's) a comeback that was.
__________________
---> Your Lack of Understanding is Your Own Fault <---
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Children of Lost Parents and Standards? Scott Hutchinson Fellowship Hall 68 10-26-2007 03:21 PM
Will those that leave standards be lost? Charlie Brown Deep Waters 121 04-07-2007 12:45 PM
Lost My Seat At Church CC1 Fellowship Hall 14 04-01-2007 07:08 PM
Lost My Lunch At Church Praxeas Fellowship Hall 0 04-01-2007 07:01 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by jfrog
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.