Pel,
Thought you would enjoy this exchange I received in e-mail this morning. I am subscribed to a Bible Greek Mailing List. Some of it is just "Greek" () to me, but some things I understand.
Quote:
Peter wrote:
"Does anyone know where to get a good deal on "English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature 3rd." I could see a ton of people selling the 2nd Ed for cheap, but I could find the third for under $120. I noticed there are more pages in the 3rd ED than the 2nd what did they add?"
So then Sarah writes:
"Compared to the earlier editions, the third edition is (of course) updated, but on a practical note, it is SOOO much easier to read with font changes, bolding where necessary, etc., it is well worth the investment. I think one wag on this list (sorry, can't remember who but it probably was Mark Lightman) said he would recommend selling your first-born if necessary to get that book."
Hi, Peter,
What I said on this issue is that if I were in the market for a lexicon, I would keep my kids and sell my MOTHER. With the money from the sale, I would buy neither a BAG nor a BDAG second OR a third editon, but a used copy of Thayer's lexicon, which you can get for about $15.00. As a practical matter, Thayer is just as good as Bauer. The difference between reading the Greek New Testament with Thayer and reading it with BDAG is the difference between eating cheesecake with a fork and eating it with a spoon. The difference between BDAG 2 and BDAG 3 is the difference between eating cheescake with a fork and eating it with a really nice fork.
Lexicons are over-rated. With all the money I would save, I would buy actual TEXTS that I could READ. I would buy a Reader's Edition of the Greek New Testament so that I would not HAVE to look up words. And I would buy this, just published last year.
This is a wonderful new edition of Plato's Symposium by Geoffrey Steadman. with a big, clear readable font and all the rare vocab glossed on facing pages. Steadman says in his preface:
"One of the virtues of this commentary is that it eliminates time-
consuming dictionary work. While there are certainly occasions
where a dictionary is absolutely necessary for developing a nuanced
reading of the Greek, in most instances any advantage that may
come from looking up a word and exploring alternative meanings
is outweighed by the time and effort spent in the process. Many
continue to defend this practice, but I am convinced that such work
has little pedagogical value for intermediate level students and that
the time saved by avoiding such drudgery can be better spent
reading more Greek, reviewing morphology, learning core vocabulary,
or reading secondary literature." (p.vi)
Precisely. On the nose. I am reading Steadmans's Symposium right now, and I cannot tell you how much of a pleasure it is to read great Greek literature without looking up words in ANY dictionary, and without having to flip back to a glossary at the end of the book. (although Steadman does include one of these for really common words.) Everything is in one book,
on one page, so you can just READ READ READ.
I think the fact that we have raised the status of BDAG 3 almost into some sort of Divine Text is part of the problem with the way we read the Greek NT. This may be what Carl means by "decoding." We focus on each individual word, and we do a "word study" by looking at the most authoritative lexicon we can. Instead, I think we should try to read as much Greek as possible, in ways that are as easy as possible. Then we get a FEEL for what a Greek word means.
Actually, if I sold my mother, I would buy neither a BDAG 3 ($150.00) nor a Thayer ($18.00) but I would buy an Intermediate Liddel and Scott (so I could also read Homer and the LXX) and then I would buy Randall Buth or Christophe Rico's books/audios and I would try to learn Greek as a living language. With my mother out of the house, without her constant nagging, I would also have more TIME to read and listen to and speak more
Greek, instead of looking through lexicons.
I have a quick question for Sarah, Carl and George. You guys are all great writers in English and avid readers in English, but when is the last time you thought about getting a new, or a different edition, of an ENGLISH dictionary? This is just a rhetorical question. No need to answer, ye Nay-Thayers.
Of course, Peter, if money is not an issue for you, you should buy BDAG 3. Sarah is correct that the improvements are mostly cosmetic. The later edition is much easier on the eye. But if money is not an issue for you, maybe YOU could take my mother in.
One final point. You probably are thinking, how Markos, could you even consider selling your mother, the woman who suffered so much for you and gave you life. Well, trust me, no matter to whom I sold my mother, within a few days they would bring her back. They would pay ME to take her off their hands. I have actually sent her, along with a free copy of Thayer, to
George many times. But he keeps sending both of them back.
Pel,
Thought you would enjoy this exchange I received in e-mail this morning. I am subscribed to a Bible Greek Mailing List. Some of it is just "Greek" () to me, but some things I understand.
"Give me a word, any word, and I show you that the root of that word is Greek."
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I don't believe that I ever sided with the idea of "anything goes", Prax - for the record.
I do agree that we need to guard against excess and certainly not to teach that as doctrine nor a measuring stick of your Christian walk. I believe we know these things. I have seen the stragglers who don't get it, but I think we will always have these types among us as you have so many personalities in the mix.
I've know a few that were not trainable (your guy for instance) and insisted on having their way only to burn out at some point. You can see it coming, but you can't always stop it. Your guy needs to understand that his tone can't rise above the congregation as a whole.
Others you have to be careful not to put fear in them to respond at all while you are instructing them. Fear is very hard to overcome, for some, when operating in the Spirit or responding to a move of God.
I pretty much agree with you here, PO. I think that to try and differentiate what a persons motive is in this arena gets very murky, and really isn't our place.
I am not much for demonstrative worship (such as we are discussing) myself, but I don't have a huge problem with people doing it. I think there definitely needs to be order with it, and I don't at all think the out of control stuff is acceptable.
The church I attend definitely has this kind of worship, but it is a regular part of the service, not an "supernatural" occurrence. It is just part of the regular worship service and a lot of people are involved in it. I haven't seen too many visitors that are put off by it, and it doesn't take over the whole service. Very rarely do I see anyone that is overtaken with the seizure type of "worship."
We do have a lot of running, and while I don't know how Biblical it is, I know the people doing it, and for the most part I know that for these people it is a genuine act of worship for them. Whether misguided or not, I would never judge them for it.
Like I said, I wouldn't do it, and I don't know that there is a Biblical imperative for it, but I also don't know that there is anything against it. And unless it were being taught as something that has to be done, or even as something you should do, I don't have a problem with it. So far... ;-/
"I don't think we need a proof-text for everything we do in practicum. I think it is nice to but would reserve laboring for a prooftext on doctrinal issues. "
Pressing-On
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
Is this a serious statement?
I'll give Anderson the benefit of the doubt for a TIC there. Not sure what P-O's thumbs up means??
I'll give Anderson the benefit of the doubt for a TIC there. Not sure what P-O's thumbs up means??
I was reading him to say that our praise and worship is an individual thing on the expression and that not every single way we perform that is going to be written down for us to critique. As long as it is giving glory to God and not harming anyone, I'm fine with it.
Not so with doctrine. It does need to be critiqued.
If he didn't mean that, then I don't agree with him. LOL!
I pretty much agree with you here, PO. I think that to try and differentiate what a persons motive is in this arena gets very murky, and really isn't our place.
I am not much for demonstrative worship (such as we are discussing) myself, but I don't have a huge problem with people doing it. I think there definitely needs to be order with it, and I don't at all think the out of control stuff is acceptable.
The church I attend definitely has this kind of worship, but it is a regular part of the service, not an "supernatural" occurrence. It is just part of the regular worship service and a lot of people are involved in it. I haven't seen too many visitors that are put off by it, and it doesn't take over the whole service. Very rarely do I see anyone that is overtaken with the seizure type of "worship."
We do have a lot of running, and while I don't know how Biblical it is, I know the people doing it, and for the most part I know that for these people it is a genuine act of worship for them. Whether misguided or not, I would never judge them for it.
Like I said, I wouldn't do it, and I don't know that there is a Biblical imperative for it, but I also don't know that there is anything against it. And unless it were being taught as something that has to be done, or even as something you should do, I don't have a problem with it. So far... ;-/
Well, your avatar is throwing me off. I'm not sure I can respond!!!
Yes, I agree with you. We don't have a lot of running, shouting, etc. Our musicians will stop playing and worship at any given time, if they feel lead to do so. I do like that. Don't be chained to anything, just give it up to God.
We all need healing in our hearts and spirits after rubbing up against the world all week. It's just nice to relax and not be forced to do anything, but respond how you feel. God is like a settling rain!
I am more of a crier, but I have danced more than once.
Well, your avatar is throwing me off. I'm not sure I can respond!!!
Yes, I agree with you. We don't have a lot of running, shouting, etc. Our musicians will stop playing and worship at any given time, if they feel lead to do so. I do like that. Don't be chained to anything, just give it up to God.
We all need healing in our hearts and spirits after rubbing up against the world all week. It's just nice to relax and not be forced to do anything, but respond how you feel. God is like a settling rain!
I am more of a crier, but I have danced more than once.
LOL, my avatar is just reflecting my mood today!! So, you know, just beware! I can't actually do any real damage but if my mouth starts going, well, all bets are off! Today, it's iffy!
LOL, my avatar is just reflecting my mood today!! So, you know, just beware! I can't actually do any real damage but if my mouth starts going, well, all bets are off! Today, it's iffy!
Hahahahahahahaha! Girl! I will slap you into next week if you mess with me!! If it's payday for you, you might be happy about that.
) to me, but some things I understand.
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