Gay Pastor's(xupc)recent Letter to the UPCI ! ! !

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Chan...

I understand your sympathies. Whether I agree with them or not in not material to my sickening aversion to sodomy. However, to place lying on the same par with the disgusting things that the sodomites do to each other in their same-sex bedroom is indefensible.

The passion of your defense is noted.

I am left to wonder.

You understand NOTHING! I'm just sick and tired of people who call themselves Christians going around acting like some sins are okay while other sins are just so utterly vile that we don't even want such people anywhere near our churches. Preachers are so quick to spew venom from the pulpit with regard to homosexuality but will barely say so much as a word about liars, adulterers (including people who look lustfully at others and people who got divorced for reasons other than fornication and married someone else), swindlers, extortioners, gossips, and whatever other pet sins you want to name. All sins are equally sinful and all of them bring the same eternity in the lake of fire. All sins, except for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, bring the same forgiveness to those who repent.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Chan

You understand NOTHING! I'm just sick and tired of people who call themselves Christians going around acting like some sins are okay while other sins are just so utterly vile that we don't even want such people anywhere near our churches. Preachers are so quick to spew venom from the pulpit with regard to homosexuality but will barely say so much as a word about liars, adulterers (including people who look lustfully at others and people who got divorced for reasons other than fornication and married someone else), swindlers, extortioners, gossips, and whatever other pet sins you want to name. All sins are equally sinful and all of them bring the same eternity in the lake of fire. All sins, except for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, bring the same forgiveness to those who repent.

Except for your first three words, I agree with you.

I remember this couple came into the church for a special program and I instantly was overcome with this indignant attitude saying how dare these people desecrate the house of God!!!!

Thank God I was instantly convicted and the thought came to me, if not here, then where can they go and feel the Love of Jesus?

We have to be careful, we have been so conditioned by our religious culture and end up acting the opposite of the way Jesus would have responded to some situations and circumstances.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Newman, Ferd, MOW, S I-90.

While you all have rushed to congratulate Chan on his excellent words as though they were words sent down from heaven by an ark-angel, do you all also agree that what homosexuals do to each other in their same sex bedrooms on the same par with lying, as Chan has stated?

The wife and I were talking a few days ago about the extreme change in the thinking in todays world from the days when we were very young. It is as though it is a weird world that we are unaquainted with.

Example: Today I heard of a school kid placing his ham sandwich on the lunch room. The school went into a panic. It is unknown what will happen to the poor confused kid. It seems that the Muslim kids were greatly offended. The kid is in big trouble and will undergo sensitivity training and possibly disciplined and sent to another school.

The warped mentality of this today's world is leaving me as a total stranger here.

Newman, Rhoni, MOW and all. I love you all very much. But, I am totally shocked at this new attitude toward homosexuality. I've said it before. Seeing the rapid change of public mentality that has crept into the church, I fully expect that the UPC will debate ordaining homosexual preachers, if the Lord tarries long enough.

Lying is NOT on the same par with what homos do to each other. God never destroyed two cities because the people told lies. NEVER. There are degrees of abomonations. When someone lies, he can be redeemed. When someone falls into the homosexual lifestyle, the spirit of it is so powerful that the mind becomes totally reprobated. Few, precious few are ever redeemed from it.

Anyway, I am surprised. But, I am told that I should not be.

Your post shows your utter ignorance in this regard, which doesn't surprise me at all. You seem to think that I'm making homosexuality out to be somehow less evil than it is. Of course, the only possible way you can come to that conclusion is to read your own ungodly opinions into what I said (ungodly because your opinions are contrary to God's word). It isn't that homosexuality is somehow less evil, it's that lying is more evil than you seem to think it is. You and I agree that homosexuality is an abomination, something morally detestable. How does what I said contradict that? What you seem to want to ignore is that the BIBLE says that lying is an abomination. For you to say that lying is not on the same level as homosexuality is to disagree with the word of God and, thus, to make yourself an enemy of God. GOD'S WORD views both homosexuality and lying as abominations. There is not even one passage of scripture that says some abominations (referring to things that are morally detestable, not to things that are ceremonially unclean) are more or less abominable than others.

If you want to go around preaching as if it's okay to commit some sins (because, after all, they're not "serious" sins like homosexuality) or go around preaching as if some sins don't really offend God all that much, I pray that souls don't end up in the lake of fire because they were deceived by your preaching into believing that their sins were sort of okay and that they didn't really have to get victory over them.

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Except for your first three words, I agree with you.

I remember this couple came into the church for a special program and I instantly was overcome with this indignant attitude saying how dare these people desecrate the house of God!!!!

Thank God I was instantly convicted and the thought came to me, if not here, then where can they go and feel the Love of Jesus?

We have to be careful, we have been so conditioned by our religious culture and end up acting the opposite of the way Jesus would have responded to some situations and circumstances.

He accused me of having certain "sympathies" (those sympathies, according to his thinking, being in support of homosexuality) by saying he understands them. If that's what he understands then he understands nothing!

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Indeed sin is sin. No argument there. All will be excluded from heaven.

One man prayed, "Give me neither poverty or riches." His prayer expressed his wishes that in poverty he would not steal, nor riches that he would forget God.

In the old days, which it seems that I know more of, I remember a poor man that went hunting and shot squirrels out of season. He was hauled before the judge that had compassion on the man in his transgression when he leared that the poor man had many children who were hungry. The judge gave the man a little probation only and then sought to find the man some help that his children could eat.

Homosexual sins are not on this level. There are degrees of sin.

This is nothing more than moral relativity.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Chan

For you to say that lying is not on the same level as homosexuality is to disagree with the word of God and, thus, to make yourself an enemy of God. GOD'S WORD views both homosexuality and lying as abominations. There is not even one passage of scripture that says some abominations (referring to things that are morally detestable, not to things that are ceremonially unclean) are more or less abominable than others.

Actually Chan I beg to differ with you in this regard. Not all abominations were treated as equally offensive. There was no command in the OT to stone someone for lying. Marriages could not be broken for lying either.

Originally Posted by Newman

Brother Strange- From an eternal point of view; both lying and homosexuality will get you to hell.

The eternal point of view is the only correct point of view!

However, I do believe and agree with you that sexual sin carries much greater consequences in this life and in fact too often has far reaching effects on others as well. Most lies are not so hard to live with and not so destructive to the soul of others and can be repented of without years of anquish.

Irrelevant. The only consequences that matter are the eternal consequences!

Furthermore; I am not going to get to bothered by Chan's position on this because he clearly sees in black and white only. One can clearly see this given his response to the shootings last week.

Yes, I see truth and error and I absolutely reject this moral relativity garbage you and Brother Strange are promoting. There is only truth and not truth.

Originally Posted by Newman

Actually Chan I beg to differ with you in this regard. Not all abominations were treated as equally offensive. There was no command in the OT to stone someone for lying. Marriages could not be broken for lying either.

Now, go back and actually READ the part you bolded and show me "even one passage of scripture that says some abominations (referring to things that are morally detestable, not to things that are ceremonially unclean) are more or less abominable than others." Your post is not differing with what was written. All sins bring the same eternity in the lake of fire for those who do not repent (unless you think you can show me scripture that says there are different lakes of fire and that these lakes are not all the same) and, except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the same forgiveness for those who repent (unless you can show me where the Bible says there are other sins God will not forgive).

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Chan

The eternal point of view is the only correct point of view!

Irrelevant. The only consequences that matter are the eternal consequences!

Yes, I see truth and error and I absolutely reject this moral relativity garbage you and Brother Strange are promoting. There is only truth and not truth.

Why don't you quit your job today if only eternal consequences matter? Because we live here and now...

I clearly showed you that God did not weigh all abominations the same in relation to how society functions. It appears that there is indeed a pecking order for abominations. Live with it.

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Well, so far, I appreciate a decent, civil discussion of yet another very difficult topic.

I must clarify the whole "grading" of sin deal. I do believe that in God's eyes, there is a gradation of sin. However, it just may not be exactly the gradation that we, as humans, think it is. I am NOT soft on homosexuality. I am, however, compassionate toward homosexuals.

As far as my personal thinking is concerned, I agree with Rhoni & Newman that the worst sins are sexual sins committed against an innocent child. The damage from an unscrupulous pervert indelibly "branded" on the spirit of a child is "almost" unforgiveable, IMO.

All sins have the ability to condemn to hell....sin is sin. "For him who knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin."

I do not believe that homosexuality is acceptable in any way and that it is, indeed, perversion. That being said, why does homosexuality receive a larger "red letter" than the other perversions?

The problem here is that you and others are thinking from a worldly point of view. In your minds, morality is relative in that some things are somehow less wrong than others. You know that from an eternal perspective (which is the only correct perspective) all sins bring the same eternity in the lake of fire for those who do not repent and (except for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) the same forgiveness for those who do repent. I will never understand why so much of the Church insists on holding onto such a worldy view of sin!