Proof Of Soul Sleep

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is the Greek to English reading of Luke 23:43. The words Yeshua said to the thief according to the Pocket Interlinear by Jay Green Sr. and the NKJV Greek Interlinear.

And Jesus said to him Assuredly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise.

The commas are added by men and not inspired. So you can see once that is understood Yeshua is telling the man TODAY I tell you you will be with me in Paradise.

That makes more sense with the weight of the scriptures and also as directly answering the thiefs request which was:

Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom.

He simply asked the Lord after he came into the kingdom to remember him.

And so the case agaist immortality/eternal life apart from the resurrection continues to grow.

[Michael The Disciple]

Rev.6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled

Much of Revelation is symbolic. The altar is a place of sacrifice. When a sacrifice was killed its life blood wound up at the bottom of the altar in other words UNDER THE ALTAR.

12: And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar. Exodus 29:12

The blood represents the LIFE.

4: But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Gen. 9:4

John sees in vision form Saints are laying down their lifes blood. They are under the altar signifying the pouring out of their blood in sacrifice to Yeshua Messiah.

They cry out for vengence upon their murderers. Does this sound like PARADISE to you?

They are told to REST until the rest of their brethren will be killed.

Strongs defines rest as "repose".

The Dictionary says repose means to "lie at rest".

Sounds like theses souls are sleeping. This agrees with the fact that Rev. 20:4-5 shows us WHEN the souls came back to life.

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev. 20:4-5

This clarifies the matter. The souls under the altar came to life AT THE RESURRECTION. Souls in this context are plainly said to have been dead and then lived again by means of resurrection. Then others (souls) did NOT LIVE AGAIN until the 1000 years are finished.

So this is not the knockout punch against soul sleep some think it is. On the contrary it confirms it.

After all why would we need a resurrected body if when we die we are already alive with a spiritual body in Heaven?

It makes the important and foundation doctrine of the resurrection of none effect.

Here is something to consider. It is actually the key to understanding. All the places where the dead appear to be alive you are looking at either visions (which need interpretation) or parables.

But whenever plain doctrine is being taught the dead are WAITING RESURRECTION.

[Lafon]

I am simply dismayed, as well as deeply disappointed with the stark reality of the apparent lack of a proper biblical-based understanding by many concerning what is, in fact, one of the most fundamental elements of interpreting the sound principles of the sacred written "Oracles of God."

How is it even possible for one to profess that they have a clear understanding of things concerning the temporary state/condition of existence, or reality of the eternal invisible SOUL of mankind as it awaits resurrection and final judgment, unless of course, they FIRST attain a sound, biblical-based understanding of that which pertains to death - the event which caused all mankind to have such a desperate NEED of a Savior, and why ONLY God Himself could be that Savior?

This realization prompts me to tender this extremely significant question - What element of the penalty of death, which God imposed upon ALL mankind through the "seed" of Adam's fleshly body, was so eternally insurmountable for mankind that it necessitated, yea, required/demanded, that the invisible Spirit of God Himself indwell a human body so that He might partake of the same, and in so doing, provide the "means" whereby sinful and rebellious man might be reconciled to his Heavenly Creator?

Surely if one does not understand the answer to this elementary principle of that which the judgment of death entailed, then it will be quite impossible for that man to fully, and properly, comprehend all that death entailed, especially the matter of what is commonly known as "soul sleep."

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I am simply dismayed, as well as deeply disappointed with the stark reality of the apparent lack of a proper biblical-based understanding by many concerning what is, in fact, one of the most fundamental elements of interpreting the sound principles of the sacred written "Oracles of God."

How is it even possible for one to profess that they have a clear understanding of things concerning the temporary state/condition of existence, or reality of the eternal invisible SOUL of mankind as it awaits resurrection and final judgment, unless of course, they FIRST attain a sound, biblical-based understanding of that which pertains to death - the event which caused all mankind to have such a desperate NEED of a Savior, and why ONLY God Himself could be that Savior?

This realization prompts me to tender this extremely significant question - What element of the penalty of death, which God imposed upon ALL mankind through the "seed" of Adam's fleshly body, was so eternally insurmountable for mankind that it necessitated, yea, required/demanded, that the invisible Spirit of God Himself indwell a human body so that He might partake of the same, and in so doing, provide the "means" whereby sinful and rebellious man might be reconciled to his Heavenly Creator?

Surely if one does not understand the answer to this elementary principle of that which the judgment of death entailed, then it will be quite impossible for that man to fully, and properly, comprehend all that death entailed, especially the matter of what is commonly known as "soul sleep."

Could you make that a little more clear? Like using scripture to make your point?

[ronharvey]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Here is the Greek to English reading of Luke 23:43. The words Yeshua said to the thief according to the Pocket Interlinear by Jay Green Sr. and the NKJV Greek Interlinear.

And Jesus said to him Assuredly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise.

The commas are added by men and not inspired. So you can see once that is understood Yeshua is telling the man TODAY I tell you you will be with me in Paradise.

That makes more sense with the weight of the scriptures and also as directly answering the thiefs request which was:

Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom.

He simply asked the Lord after he came into the kingdom to remember him.

And so the case agaist immortality/eternal life apart from the resurrection continues to grow.

Now Michael, let's not get all technical.

You know full well that Jesus went to Paradise that very day, He had to, see even he said the Son of man would be in the heart of the earth 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS and THEN rise again.

Hummm is this like talking out of both sides of my mouth????



Ron

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Could you make that a little more clear? Like using scripture to make your point?

Well, how 'bout me putting the question after this manner:


How did God's imposition of the judgement of death upon the physical BODY of man (note - Genesis 3:19 explicitly asserts that this penalty was NOT imposed upon the invisible SOUL of man for it is an eternal entity which was created "in the image of God," therefore CANNOT die), bring into existence a condition which demanded/required God to also inhabit a body of human flesh and undergo the experience of death, so that man might be reconciled to Him?

Yes, agreed that is "quite a mouth-full" (so to speak), but I pray that it will help you to understand the point that I am attempting to make, namely: If one does not understand the most elementary principles of interpreting the language of that which the Bible contains concerning the first judgment rendered upon mankind, then how is it possible for that man to attain knowledge of the state/condition of the SOUL of man following death (while it awaits its resurrection and final judgment)?

[ronharvey]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Well, how 'bout me putting the question after this manner:


How did God's imposition of the judgement of death upon the physical BODY of man (note - Genesis 3:19 explicitly asserts that this penalty was NOT imposed upon the invisible SOUL of man for it is an eternal entity which was created "in the image of God," therefore CANNOT die), bring into existence a condition which demanded/required God to also inhabit a body of human flesh and undergo the experience of death, so that man might be reconciled to Him?

Yes, agreed that is "quite a mouth-full" (so to speak), but I pray that it will help you to understand the point that I am attempting to make, namely: If one does not understand the most elementary principles of interpreting the language of that which the Bible contains concerning the first judgment rendered upon mankind, then how is it possible for that man to attain knowledge of the state/condition of the SOUL of man following death (while it awaits its resurrection and final judgment)?

So Cool, a person who actually has scripture for ETERNAL SOUL that states it is an "eternal entity"!!!!

Wow, but ugh, you forgot to include that verse... what was it?

Ron

[mfblume]

Okay, I'll humour you, bro.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Hi Joel and Mike,

Could you explain where peoples souls went before Abraham died and went to take residence in his Bosom?

The abode of the departed saints was not called Abraham's bosom in the sense that Abraham initiated a place for them to abide in, and no one did abide there until he came along to initiate it. The reasoning is that just as Abraham is called father of the faithful, but in no way started the life of faith, the abode of the righteous dead existed before Abraham ever came along. It is just that Abraham was later known as father of the faithful and reference to this place as his bosom was simply used by Christ due to Abraham's notable trait.

Jesus was speaking to Pharisees who claimed lineage from Abraham. The message of the rich man and Lazarus was not only referring to an actual place, but was more purposely used to speak a message to the pharisees who were like the rich man, so that Jesus could get a point across to them.

Why did the rich man pray to Abraham and not to God?

Again, Christ was directing his words to Pharisees who claimed Abraham's lineage and were proud of it -- Matt 3:9.. The pharisees certainly got the impact of Christ's point.

Where can we find Abrahams Bosom in the Old Testament?

This question you ask strikes against Christ's character, although I am sure you would never consciously do that. But Abraham's bosom was not fantasy land. Christ never said this was a parable of something that did not exist. In fact, every time Christ DID use parables, they were not fantasy pictures of goblins or non-existent places.

HADES was the abode of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead. Before the cross, Hades was comprised of both the gehenna torment of fire and what Christ called Abraham's Bosom. When Christ made atonement, the righteous dead could enter glory, and Hades was comprised solely of gehenna torment of fire.

Let me ask you a question, now. Paul said that a man who died fourteen years before Paul's writing of it (apparently it was Paul, himself, but that is not a concern) was not fully known to have been in the body or out of the body. This agrees with Paul's words in 2 Cor 5 about being absent from the body.

Do you believe that the many thousands of souls who die every die and are in Hades burning hold conversations with Abraham?

There was no one in fiery hell who ever held a conversation with Abraham. Christ was simply using the idea of actual consciousness of souls after death of both the righteous and unrighteous, to again relate his point in story form to the Pharisees, emphasizing Abraham due to the Pharisee's confidence in Abraham's righteousness.

Mike Blume is on record teaching that the spirit and soul go to Heaven at death but have no body until the resurrection. If this doctrine is true why did they both have body parts? The rich man wanted Lazarus to dip his FINGER IN WATER and then touch HIS TONGUE. The rich man had EYES which he lifted up. Apparently they were able to see Abraham so he had a body also!

Ask Jesus why He used this language.

God is said to have eyes that look for souls who trust in Him. He is said to have a right hand, but we all know He literally does not. Christ was expressing a spiritual reality that exists after death by using terms we could more easily relate to, and did not mean to say the soul has physical hands and fingers.

We know the places of heaven and hell are spiritual realms and not physical locations we can locationally pinpoint on a map of the universe.

Does this not negate the "disembodied soul" doctrine?

Of course not.

Last of all guys where does this story state that these two mens SOULS went anywhere?

I have been constantly told by instant Heaven believers that all the places that talk about the state of the dead always is talking about dead bodies only. They want the burden of proof to be on me to prove that 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4 in particular to prove the soul and not just the body sleeps.

But now here in the story of Lazarus and the rich man which they take as Yeshua's literal teaching of the afterlife the word SOULS does not appear.

So Mike how can you say their souls went anywhere at their death?

Michael, you have no explicit teaching anywhere for your doctrine in the entire bible and you ask me to explain why SOULS is not written in this story of Lazarus? Who is on shaky ground? Meanwhile I claim Christ did not preach fairytales, but used actual places and familiar pictures to teach and relate truth. You are now telling me Christ preached a fairy tale to the Pharisees.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a story of two actual specific men, any more than Christ was referring to an actual individual who sowed seeds. He referred to the sort of event THAT WAS REAL. People actually sowed seeds just as much as sinners actually died and burned in hell while the righteous were in peace.

You seem to get overly technical when it comes to asking us questions, but you have no technical explanation related anywhere in scripture that you are speaking to us about. As one good man said, "Wow, but ugh, you forgot to include that verse... what was it?"

I would recommend becoming technical enough to only accept a teaching that is technically laid out in the bible moreso than you are technical in anything else.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Here is something to consider. It is actually the key to understanding. All the places where the dead appear to be alive you are looking at either visions (which need interpretation) or parables.

But whenever plain doctrine is being taught the dead are WAITING RESURRECTION.

What about Samuel called upon by the witch of Endor? The Bible did not say it was a fake Samuel, but an actual Samuel. We simply read the bible comment on it and say it was Samuel!

1 Samuel 28:12 KJV And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Did the Bible lie to us?

And what About Moses and Elijah in Matt 17? VISION in the KJV is translated as simply what was seen in modern language versions. So it is not a vision as John saw visions iN Revelation.

All in all PAUL SAID ABSENCE FROM THE BODY WAS POSSIBLE. You have said nothing yet that is convincing about that statement by Paul, and even denied you believed it was a wishful fantasy although you said Paul only WILLED that to occur, implying it could not actually occur. That one verse disproves your entire hypothesis.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Well, how 'bout me putting the question after this manner:


How did God's imposition of the judgement of death upon the physical BODY of man (note - Genesis 3:19 explicitly asserts that this penalty was NOT imposed upon the invisible SOUL of man for it is an eternal entity which was created "in the image of God," therefore CANNOT die), bring into existence a condition which demanded/required God to also inhabit a body of human flesh and undergo the experience of death, so that man might be reconciled to Him?

Yes, agreed that is "quite a mouth-full" (so to speak), but I pray that it will help you to understand the point that I am attempting to make, namely: If one does not understand the most elementary principles of interpreting the language of that which the Bible contains concerning the first judgment rendered upon mankind, then how is it possible for that man to attain knowledge of the state/condition of the SOUL of man following death (while it awaits its resurrection and final judgment)?

You know what? I can understand going to the scriptures and believing what is written. But your words are doing nothing for me in this discussion. Why not lay out your case by means of Gods inspired word?