Concerning Tulsa, could sombody please answer this

[Wink]

Originally Posted by bishoph

At the risk of being called the WPF defender (I've been called much worse I'll assure you) Let me take a stab at answering the question and hopefully provide some clarification.

Because the WPF has been billed as a fellowship not an organization, (which many here dispute) as such it differs nothing from the AWCF or the NCO, except that it is more structured and their (WPF) fees are substantial. (AWCF has very minimal dues while the NCO at this time has none as far as I can tell) However, for the man who has built a relationship with the UPCI that he wants to retain, and/or if he is in a situation where the church he pastors wishes to continue fellowship within the UPCI structure, this should not prevent him from being a part of both and deriving the benefits of both if he so chooses. This is no different IMO than a pastor paying for membership in some other "professional" association that would be related to his call of ministry. For many smaller church pastors, it may not be financially feasible to do both, in which case unfortunately a person may have to choose. (This is a concern that I have voiced to the WPF leadership and it will be addressed.)

I highly regard the UPCI and have/will never bash(ed) it or its leaders. I do feel however, that some have misunderstood the WPF because of the apparent similarities such as youth, ladies, missions, Bible quizzing, etc. Remember that the WPF is not just for UPCI members present and past, but rather for any and all Apostolics who may share a "conservative" viewpoint. This means men who may be independent and may need the different departments to better serve their members. Also it should be understood that while there may be seemingly mirror auxiliaries, they are not even remotely the same as outlined in Tulsa.

As an example with the World Missions committee, the WPF is not going to commission and deputize missionaries. They are going to identify nationals who are already evangelizing their countries and help them facilitate that evangelism. They will also identify missionaries who are doing the work of God and help to raise their support without the need for deputation, and without subtracting any administrative fees from their support, thus allowing them to put their efforts in fulfilling their call instead of raising money. They have stated very clearly that if a WPF pastor wishes to support a UPCI/other Apostolic organization missionary that all funds designated for that missionary will be sent to the respective organization.

Again I think it is hypocritical to find fault with the WPF based on these issues, if you would defend someone being UPCI and AWCF. The AWCF has a missions department (I have been on missions trips with them) they now have a youth arm that LS has been developing (and doing a great job) etc.

Respectfully Submitted.

then why do you need a formal fellowship? I know lots of cons that travel and attend each others meetings and have a circle of fellowship without putting a name to it or drawing up paperwork or appointing people or taking money!!!

Why not just agree to fellowship certain people and leave the money and the positions out of it.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Wink

then why do you need a formal fellowship? I know lots of cons that travel and attend each others meetings and have a circle of fellowship without putting a name to it or drawing up paperwork or appointing people or taking money!!!

Why not just agree to fellowship certain people and leave the money and the positions out of it.

Eureka!!!! The millions dollar question is now on the floor!

Seems to be working for Bro. Epley.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Wink

then why do you need a formal fellowship? I know lots of cons that travel and attend each others meetings and have a circle of fellowship without putting a name to it or drawing up paperwork or appointing people or taking money!!!

Why not just agree to fellowship certain people and leave the money and the positions out of it.

Again I am not the resident WPF representative, however, when I see responses like this it makes me wonder a little..................I have seen people strongly defend the NCO and the AWCF here, both of which are organized, both of which raise monies, (one officially and one unofficially) have leaders and appointed leadership, and both of which encourage their members to continue their present circles of fellowship while providing a "preferred" environment to enhance the chosen genre of fellowship.

I don't have any problem with people critiquing WPF or stating their opinions whether for or against, I just think the assessment must be fair and balanced. You can't draw certain conclusions about one group and excuse the same in another group without revealing a biased opinion.

(Incidentally I support the NCO and the AWCF in their efforts and applaud them for what they are attempting to do for the kingdom.) JMHO

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by NLYP

I still wish someone would explain something to me.....
"We are not requiring anybody to leave the UPC to be a part of the WWPF"

oooook.

So....I am UPC....and I agree that if hold license that I will faithfully support the UPC with prayer and finances.

So.....If I am upc AND wwpf.....where does my financial alliegence lie?

They say they are not an org...YET..they have woman ministry, foreign ministry, home missions, youth ministry...etc....

They WILL want their members to support their works.

So whats a "Dual" membership man to do???

I say this...ITS a ploy to get them in the door.

I just have serious problems with the "dual" thing.....

Get in or Get out....

I do know the general Board is getting ready to meet and address this....
We shall see.......
Dont get me wrong....I want this Apostolic message to reach the world...BUT...there is an old saying...."fish or cut bait".

God bless the WWPF...but not at the expense of devisiveness towards the fellowship I am a part of and love.

I say that with no malicious intent...

Didn't your hero Anthony M say at BOTT this last year that the TV issue wasn't a holiness issue but an evangelism issue? Why would you oppose another layer of potential evangelism like the WPF is offering. More potential funds going to various missions and ministries that might not be covered by the umbrella of the UPC. More souls reached by the gospel that the UPC is not reaching.

Originally Posted by NLYP

Dont get me wrong....I want this Apostolic message to reach the world...BUT...there is an old saying...."fish or cut bait".

Either you want this apostolic message to reach the world or you don't. No buts at all.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by TrmptPraise

OK, Dan.


Seriously, there shouldn't be one. You can only serve one master

True and the UPC is a hard taskmaster isn't she

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by bishoph

At the risk of being called the WPF defender (I've been called much worse I'll assure you) Let me take a stab at answering the question and hopefully provide some clarification.

Because the WPF has been billed as a fellowship not an organization, (which many here dispute) as such it differs nothing from the AWCF or the NCO, except that it is more structured and their (WPF) fees are substantial. (AWCF has very minimal dues while the NCO at this time has none as far as I can tell) However, for the man who has built a relationship with the UPCI that he wants to retain, and/or if he is in a situation where the church he pastors wishes to continue fellowship within the UPCI structure, this should not prevent him from being a part of both and deriving the benefits of both if he so chooses. This is no different IMO than a pastor paying for membership in some other "professional" association that would be related to his call of ministry. For many smaller church pastors, it may not be financially feasible to do both, in which case unfortunately a person may have to choose. (This is a concern that I have voiced to the WPF leadership and it will be addressed.)

I highly regard the UPCI and have/will never bash(ed) it or its leaders. I do feel however, that some have misunderstood the WPF because of the apparent similarities such as youth, ladies, missions, Bible quizzing, etc. Remember that the WPF is not just for UPCI members present and past, but rather for any and all Apostolics who may share a "conservative" viewpoint. This means men who may be independent and may need the different departments to better serve their members. Also it should be understood that while there may be seemingly mirror auxiliaries, they are not even remotely the same as outlined in Tulsa.

As an example with the World Missions committee, the WPF is not going to commission and deputize missionaries. They are going to identify nationals who are already evangelizing their countries and help them facilitate that evangelism. They will also identify missionaries who are doing the work of God and help to raise their support without the need for deputation, and without subtracting any administrative fees from their support, thus allowing them to put their efforts in fulfilling their call instead of raising money. They have stated very clearly that if a WPF pastor wishes to support a UPCI/other Apostolic organization missionary that all funds designated for that missionary will be sent to the respective organization.

Again I think it is hypocritical to find fault with the WPF based on these issues, if you would defend someone being UPCI and AWCF. The AWCF has a missions department (I have been on missions trips with them) they now have a youth arm that LS has been developing (and doing a great job) etc.

Respectfully Submitted.

Quit being so logical. That is not allowed here.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by NLYP

I still wish someone would explain something to me.....
"We are not requiring anybody to leave the UPC to be a part of the WWPF"

oooook.

So....I am UPC....and I agree that if hold license that I will faithfully support the UPC with prayer and finances.

So.....If I am upc AND wwpf.....where does my financial alliegence lie?

They say they are not an org...YET..they have woman ministry, foreign ministry, home missions, youth ministry...etc....

They WILL want their members to support their works.

So whats a "Dual" membership man to do???

I say this...ITS a ploy to get them in the door.

I just have serious problems with the "dual" thing.....

Get in or Get out....

I do know the general Board is getting ready to meet and address this....
We shall see.......
Dont get me wrong....I want this Apostolic message to reach the world...BUT...there is an old saying...."fish or cut bait".

God bless the WWPF...but not at the expense of devisiveness towards the fellowship I am a part of and love.

I say that with no malicious intent...

Of course the WPF wants you to send money along to them. Even to the point of using part of your tithing to pay membership.

That is a first.

They want to make sure you do not have any extra out of pocket.

Just do not give it the other God when you tithe give it to the WPF God.

Becasue we live more like the real God.

God will only be winking our way.....

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

Of course the WPF wants you to send money along to them. Even to the point of using part of your tithing to pay membership.

That is a first.

They want to make sure you do not have any extra out of pocket.

Just do not give it the other God when you tithe give it to the WPF God.

Becasue we live more like the real God.

God will only be winking our way.....

It's posts like this that remind me to pray for you, that God would heal your wounds from being kicked in the head by a horse.

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Again I am not the resident WPF representative, however, when I see responses like this it makes me wonder a little..................I have seen people strongly defend the NCO and the AWCF here, both of which are organized, both of which raise monies, (one officially and one unofficially) have leaders and appointed leadership, and both of which encourage their members to continue their present circles of fellowship while providing a "preferred" environment to enhance the chosen genre of fellowship.

I don't have any problem with people critiquing WPF or stating their opinions whether for or against, I just think the assessment must be fair and balanced. You can't draw certain conclusions about one group and excuse the same in another group without revealing a biased opinion.

(Incidentally I support the NCO and the AWCF in their efforts and applaud them for what they are attempting to do for the kingdom.) JMHO

However......the AWCF nor the NCO will get the money that I give the UPCI.
You a part of the sanhiedran of 50...so I understand your defense.
I DO KNOW that the General Board is meeting on Feb 25th and this will be discussed. Dual membership will not be an option is my understanding.

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Again I am not the resident WPF representative, however, when I see responses like this it makes me wonder a little..................I have seen people strongly defend the NCO and the AWCF here, both of which are organized, both of which raise monies, (one officially and one unofficially) have leaders and appointed leadership, and both of which encourage their members to continue their present circles of fellowship while providing a "preferred" environment to enhance the chosen genre of fellowship.

I don't have any problem with people critiquing WPF or stating their opinions whether for or against, I just think the assessment must be fair and balanced. You can't draw certain conclusions about one group and excuse the same in another group without revealing a biased opinion.

(Incidentally I support the NCO and the AWCF in their efforts and applaud them for what they are attempting to do for the kingdom.) JMHO

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