For those who want to know...RULES at my church!

[Trouvere]

Submission is not blind.

[The Mrs]

I see it's the naysayers turn to voice their opinions and make light of something they really have no idea how hurtful and painful it really is.

It has been repeated over and over...if you haven't walked a mile in my shoes, you have no clue what you're talking about. In this case, that really does apply.

I always get irritated when I see posts that say, 'just walk', 'just leave', 'just go somewhere else'. Vote with your feet. I wish it were that simple, but it's not.

Unless you have been under spiritual abuse, or cult-like tendencies, you can't imagine how hard it really is. You don't 'just leave'. You are tied to that place and that leadership with only one thought in mind...your salvation is at stake. You HAVE to make it to heaven. And THIS is the ONLY WAY to get there. You are taught that there's no other way to be saved. I would NEVER risk my salvation like that.

You can't 'vote with your feet' unless you know it's wrong. Unless you've already had some exposure to it, you just don't realize it's wrong. NOW I know what to look for, and what to avoid...but I didn't THEN. I thought it was how everybody lived (inside the UPC of course).

People living under this kind of bondage lead very pain-filled lives. As witnessed in this thread alone, there were remarks made of suicide, or 'death thoughts'. I remember being one of those as well. You can't please the pastor, so you must not be pleasing God, so you start to think you would be better off dead, and wonder why God hasn't taken your life already. I remember several months that everytime I got in the car I expected to die in a crash.

When you first start realizing something's wrong, and you need to get out of there, you don't think about just going to the church next door. The only acceptable way for you to ever leave THAT CHURCH is if you move. So you start praying that God would give your husband a job opportunity in another city. Or another state. Or even in my case, another country. A job change is the ONLY acceptable reason, and even then it still has to be 'okayed' by the pastor. You still have to ask his permission. And he still has to consult with God about it, and will let you know the outcome.

I wish I could convey the hold this type of teaching has on a person...when you are constantly reminded of how your salvation is tied to this, you don't ever just walk away, or even dare to disagree.

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Submission is not blind.

Submission is VERY blind when you don't know to think any other way.

Obey! Obey! Obey!

It's your ONLY ticket to heaven.

I was NEVER willing to risk going to heaven.

[LaVonne]

Originally Posted by Amos

Mrs......

I realize that it will be very easy for you to take this personally.

I am not defending any particular practice of the pastor in question.

I am just saying that many are judging and making some oretty strong statements about the man based totally on the recollections of those who walked away from the church.
I have lived long enough to know that many times the perspectives of different people looking at the same event can be very different.

We are just getting one side here.

Also, it is a fact that people who "backslide" are very, very inclined to have extremely negative things to say about the church in order to vindicate their own actions.

That is human nature.

I would like to point out here that not all walked away from UPC...my husband and I are still UPC to this day. The others I happen to know and that have had a voice in this thread are lovely people, who have been wounded deeply. I do not blame them from walking away from UPC...you have no idea what it's like to leave a UPC church in Oregon for a different one. You are marked forever...and considered a church hopper and backslidder. My heart goes out to those who want a church, but have no safe place to go.

[Timmy]

To those who reminded us, yes, there are two sides to every story, and the pastors in question are (apparently) not here to defend themselves.

So let's hear the other side! Sure, why not? They are Apostolic, right? Isn't this the Apostolic Friends Forum, after all? Somebody contact these anointed ones and ask them to join their friends! And while we're at it, invite their entire congregations, too! Let's hear all the sides to these stories.

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I see it's the naysayers turn to voice their opinions and make light of something they really have no idea how hurtful and painful it really is.

It has been repeated over and over...if you haven't walked a mile in my shoes, you have no clue what you're talking about. In this case, that really does apply.

I always get irritated when I see posts that say, 'just walk', 'just leave', 'just go somewhere else'. Vote with your feet. I wish it were that simple, but it's not.

Unless you have been under spiritual abuse, or cult-like tendencies, you can't imagine how hard it really is. You don't 'just leave'. You are tied to that place and that leadership with only one thought in mind...your salvation is at stake. You HAVE to make it to heaven. And THIS is the ONLY WAY to get there. You are taught that there's no other way to be saved. I would NEVER risk my salvation like that.

You can't 'vote with your feet' unless you know it's wrong. Unless you've already had some exposure to it, you just don't realize it's wrong. NOW I know what to look for, and what to avoid...but I didn't THEN. I thought it was how everybody lived (inside the UPC of course).

People living under this kind of bondage lead very pain-filled lives. As witnessed in this thread alone, there were remarks made of suicide, or 'death thoughts'. I remember being one of those as well. You can't please the pastor, so you must not be pleasing God, so you start to think you would be better off dead, and wonder why God hasn't taken your life already. I remember several months that everytime I got in the car I expected to die in a crash.

When you first start realizing something's wrong, and you need to get out of there, you don't think about just going to the church next door. The only acceptable way for you to ever leave THAT CHURCH is if you move. So you start praying that God would give your husband a job opportunity in another city. Or another state. Or even in my case, another country. A job change is the ONLY acceptable reason, and even then it still has to be 'okayed' by the pastor. You still have to ask his permission. And he still has to consult with God about it, and will let you know the outcome.

I wish I could convey the hold this type of teaching has on a person...when you are constantly reminded of how your salvation is tied to this, you don't ever just walk away, or even dare to disagree.

I understand this...

So when you start rebuilding your life, how close do you allow yourself to get back to submitting and obeying a pastor? It took me quite a while to come to a point of no return in the OTHER direction, some God-sent realizations and revelations, letting go of a crazy bit personal stuff...just to find that line I mentioned a few posts above.

[LaVonne]

Originally Posted by Timmy

To those who reminded us, yes, there are two sides to every story, and the pastors in question are (apparently) not here to defend themselves.

So let's hear the other side! Sure, why not? They are Apostolic, right? Isn't this the Apostolic Friends Forum, after all? Somebody contact these anointed ones and ask them to join their friends! And while we're at it, invite their entire congregations, too! Let's hear all the sides to these stories.

I would welcome them to come and have a voice as well.

[nahkoe]

LOL It's been getting down to a nice brisk 32 degrees overnight. I was outside around 9 last night checking out how cold I can anticipate it to be tonight. It shouldn't be *too* bad, but we are taking gloves, hats, blankets, and I finally broke down and bought tights for myself. lol

Originally Posted by Trouvere

I haven't done it since last year.We were in La and about froze to death but it was fun.I love the singing.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I would also like to add that the 'narrow source' you refer to include 4 (apparently backslid) posters here. One witness was formly licensed, one should have been licensed, and two regular lay-people. Sounds like a fairly broad spectrum to me.

Thanks for clarifying - - I just don't know why some can't admit there are some problems out there.

It's like an arsonist who says, "None of those people even have houses anymore, how can they accuse me of burning their house down?"