Why Do We Suffer? & Does God Really Punish Us?

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by ILG

Sarah, while I was in HM, I never regretted it. But and however, we left that work to take an established church. During that time it was much, much worse than anything I experienced in Home Missions and also a time where my husband and I were accused of stealing money and sued. After giving so much in HM, it was such a slap in the face as we COULD HAVE stolen A LOT of money if we had so desired. We could have also then stolen A LOT of moeny from the established church. In both places, we left much behind. In 10 years of pastoring, the only time we made any money was in the last two and that was only because we had a parsonage and the church paid the utitlites. We had all the records to show we were clean. We saved all those records, I believe my husband has them all, just in case anybody were to ever accuse again.

RevRandy's Dad took over the church we left behind in HM. He said we left it financially well. All the bills were paid and when they sold some property, the church is sitting right well now as far as I know.

Here is the kicker for me and something many here will not understand at all.
I had a revelation right before we were sued about standards and my husband agreed with me that standards are not biblical. So, after giving and pouring our hearts and souls into this, we left behind something we don't even believe in anymore. Yes, I believe souls will be saved. That is great, but it certainly is bittersweet.

We considered pulling the church out. We disaffiliated the church and the presbyter told the congregation to watch out.....we could steal the money and run with it if they disaffiliated. We disaffiliated.....and not only did we not steal the money, we did not even pull the church out of the org.

What we did was all honorable. I expect God to bless us for it. And He has done some of that blessing. But sometimes I think if we hadn't poured all that money into a church that we don't even believe in anymore, we might at least have a few things that we really wanted. We are good money managers, we have a decent house and are getting the cards payed off and are getting some money in savings again. We will have something at some point. But all our hopes and dreams that we built for the future.....everything we poured in, is like dust and gone.

Sorry if I sound bitter and angry. I do have my days. It's easy to say "Let it go" when it's not your life that was poured out. Most of the time, I'm just glad we got out when we did.

ILG, I feel overwhelmed when reading your post. I'm so sorry you went through what you did, and I wish I, or someone could say something to make you feel better.

I believe you when you say that you are honest people, and good money managers. It seems the Lord is blessing you now, materially, for which I'm sure you are thankful.

You know, we never received a dime from the churches we pastored. When they begin to be self supporting, we would leave and start another one. lol But I can honestly say that I didn't regret it then, and I don't regret it now. We knew we were doing what the Lord wanted us to do.

I've been vastly disappointed in people, and circumstances. But I got over it (eventually) and did get on with life. That's what the Lord expects of us, Him being our example. Not only that, I don't want an ulcer!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sarah

ILG, I feel overwhelmed when reading your post. I'm so sorry you went through what you did, and I wish I, or someone could say something to make you feel better.

I believe you when you say that you are honest people, and good money managers. It seems the Lord is blessing you now, materially, for which I'm sure you are thankful.

You know, we never received a dime from the churches we pastored. When they begin to be self supporting, we would leave and start another one. lol But I can honestly say that I didn't regret it then, and I don't regret it now. We knew we were doing what the Lord wanted us to do.

I've been vastly disappointed in people, and circumstances. But I got over it (eventually) and did get on with life. That's what the Lord expects of us, Him being our example. Not only that, I don't want an ulcer!

Me either, which is why I talk about it very sporadically on here. It's most of the time not worth getting into.

I appreciate your support.

The only reason I still think about it and get riled up from time to time is because I have family that is still involved in it... lots of family actually.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

The only reason I still think about it and get riled up from time to time is because I have family that is still involved in it... lots of family actually.

I don't have any family in the UPC except my mother in law who we won and baptized and is fine with the fact that I wear pants and such now. I'm not sure how often she even attends church.

I understand how having family in could keep you thinking about it. I stay on this list because it's what I know.....and the church we attend now we go into on Sunday morning and leave right after church and are not involved. I stay here for balance.

My family would be very upset with me if I ever got back into the UPC. They never liked it in the first place. They got to the point where they could see some good in it and respected that....but they see us the same way now without the legalism.

[ILG]

Resident Iconoclast, eh Sheltiedad?? LOL! I like it!

Originally Posted by ILG

Resident Iconoclast, eh Sheltiedad?? LOL! I like it!

I had heard of that word but never knew what it meant until you called me one yesterday... When I read the definition, I was jumping up and down with excitement that there is already a name for what I am...

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

I had heard of that word but never knew what it meant until you called me one yesterday... When I read the definition, I was jumping up and down with excitement that there is already a name for what I am...

For those who need a definition:

i·con·o·clast /aɪˈkɒnəˌklæst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahy-kon-uh-klast]

1. a breaker or destroyer of images, esp. those set up for religious veneration.
2. a person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditional institutions, etc., as being based on error or superstition.

Word History: An iconoclast can be unpleasant company, but at least the modern iconoclast only attacks such things as ideas and institutions. The original iconoclasts destroyed countless works of art. Eikonoklastēs, the ancestor of our word, was first formed in Medieval Greek from the elements eikōn, "image, likeness," and -klastēs, "breaker," from klān, "to break." The images referred to by the word are religious images, which were the subject of controversy among Christians of the Byzantine Empire in the 8th and 9th centuries, when iconoclasm was at its height. In addition to destroying many sculptures and paintings, those opposed to images attempted to have them barred from display and veneration. During the Protestant Reformation images in churches were again felt to be idolatrous and were once more banned and destroyed. It is around this time that iconoclast, the descendant of the Greek word, is first recorded in English (1641), with reference to the Byzantine iconoclasts. In the 19th century iconoclast took on the secular sense that it has today, as in "Kant was the great iconoclast" (James Martineau).

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

My condolences as well.

Bro. Seguidordejesus,

You know the youngest sister of we eleven. Sara C's mother. L... C.

Blessings,

Falla39

[Walk and Talk]

“Is God trying to get thru to us?”

The following was posted by me on 9/28/2004, in reply to a post from someone saying that disasters were God trying to get through to us. Maybe it is okay for me to copy-and-past it here in a partial answer to your queston.

Hi,
You said, "We need to listen and repent."

How many non-Christian people "get the message" during calamities that "they need to listen and repent"? Wouldn't God make it obvious that the disaster was a message from Him?

What I ask here is not a negative reflection on what you have had to say, rather it is a sincere question many have - including myself.

Were the calamities happening to Job, God saying something to him? Did he need to figure out the message and repent?

If rain can bring blessing AND destructive floods, and the word said it falls on the righteous and unrighteous (Matt 5:45), can the destructive flood in the Christian's life only indicate they have a problem and need to repent?

I tend to agree that mounting calamities would SEEM to indicate the beginnings of judgments upon the earth, upon the USA, the fires in California upon California, etc.

I also realize there are many Jesus loving, Jesus serving, Godly people in Hurricane ravished Florida or Louisiana, in ash covered (1980) Eastern Washington, in fire ravished neighborhoods in California, in tornado alley of the south and central USA, etc. - Christ loving followers of Jesus that are hurt in the calamities along with everyone else. Does this indicate that they too need to find God's message for them in the disaster and repent?

When I lost my job; when my wife and I were in the devastating accident following the job loss; when we lost most everything because of these two incidents, we quickly asked the Lord if we brought the events upon ourselves by not being in the right place with Jesus. We found no "sinful" area that would bring calamity into our lives. We concluded, "life happens" (the rain falls) on everyone - Christian and non-Christian alike.

We don't understand all this in the context of the Old Testament passages indicating God's judgment upon those not walking with Him, and His blessings upon those walking with Him. We all tend to ask, "Why Lord don't I see your blessings in our/my life during this time of rain and flood?" "Why, when I'm walking with you, am I finding disaster in my life?"

I tend to agree with the scripture someone posted recently that said we are to walk humbly with our God. (Mic 6:8) We do not understand why things happen to us. We don't always see that the events in our lives reflect upon some harsh message from God; a message that we are to figure out and then eventually end up repenting of the dastardly deeds causing for God's harshness.

Why aren't the peoples of northern Europe, and Brazil, who are reportedly walking in a quagmire of sex, drugs, and anti-Christ attitudes, receiving calamities as we are. Is the answer that "Judgment starts first at the house of God"? Could this be too simplistic of an answer?

The preacher ministering at a funeral is hard pressed to find God given comforting words. He breaths a sigh of relief when asked to minister at the funeral of a Christian that has Christian friends and family. Why? Because, he is looked at as someone responsible to make sense of a very difficult time in someone else's life. When looking at disasters in other's (the USA, California, the mid-West, the world) lives, we are in much the same place as the preacher - explaining the "maybe" impossible to explain.

Walk