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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #61  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:32 AM
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Subdued Subdued is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak View Post
Is this not a cop-out? We are soooo..... sure of so much of scripture why are we shy in this area? What you are ignoring is that there is much scripture to study on this subject.



This is a real misconception, UR creates a greater focus on reaching the lost because it brings more understanding that every person is precious and valuable, and that God really loves them and wants to save them from sin right now. Since their sins are already paid for why continue in self destruction??

If we'll all be saved regardless; then why NOT?
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  #62  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by PaPaDon View Post
Yesterday during a discussion with CJ and Mfblume on another thread, I was invited to join in a discussion/debate on this issue, but declined the offer. However, after reading everything that has been posted here, your statement as noted above, represents the summation of my position regarding the matter. If it be true (Oh! BTW, it seems that I am always being compelled to use that small 3 lettered word in discussions of this nature), that the teachings of UR are scripturally correct, then the question must arise regarding the necessity for God's habitation of a human body, and the experience of its death, to secure the eternal salvation of those who would heed and obey His commandments. The misguided teachings of UR simply calls into question whether Christ Jesus died in vain!

It simply just does NOT seem logical to normal reasoning for God doing this, should it be, in the final analysis of all things, that every human being (as well as angelic) will enjoy eternal salvation! What, then, would it be that God was seeking to accomplish by compelling every entity that He has created to undergo the trials and tribulations of this life? In my humble, learned opinion, I am convinced (and this irrevocably so), that the heretical teachings which embrace universal salvation, is an assault upon the deity of our Lord, and His experience of death to secure my eternal salvation.

And THIS represents ALL that I choose to say about the matter, hence, no further post from me shall be forthcoming, regardless of the flames which I would expect from the likes of CJ and others who have unwittingly allowed themselves to be deceived into embracing this "doctrine of devils."
This is the crux of the matter, "what on earth is God trying to accomplish". Why created a vast array of humanity for the "trials and tribulations of this life". Why continue to allow humans to be born if the majority will end up in torment?


"...from the likes of CJ and others who have unwittingly allowed themselves to be deceived into embracing this "doctrine of devils." I choose not to return evil for evil.
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  #63  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:41 AM
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Crakjak,

I appreciate your sincerity. But I think you overlooked the obvious. I know I have said this before, but where does the bible PLAINLY TEACH your idea? You seem to only resort to what statements MAY IMPLY. I see nothing that plainly says what you claim, though.
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  #64  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subdued View Post
If we'll all be saved regardless; then why NOT?
It is the process that one should desire to avoid, by being reconciled and saved now, removing the dross and chaff will not be a pleasant experience. That's like saying there is no death penalty for rape, you'll get out of prison someday anyway, so just go ahead and indulgence your selfish, self-centered self. In other words you will pay the price, for you sin.


"He who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality." (Col.3:25) "God renders to each according to his deeds." (Ro. 2:5-6).
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  #65  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Crakjak,

I appreciate your sincerity. But I think you overlooked the obvious. I know I have said this before, but where does the bible PLAINLY TEACH your idea? You seem to only resort to what statements MAY IMPLY. I see nothing that plainly says what you claim, though.
"His master delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all. So My Father also will do to you" (Matt. 18.35).

"You will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:26).

Does "till" and "until" support the concept of and unending hell or annihilation? Don't forget, "So will My Father also will do to you."
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  #66  
Old 06-02-2007, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak View Post
"His master delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all. So My Father also will do to you" (Matt. 18.35).

"You will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:26).

Does "till" and "until" support the concept of and unending hell or annihilation? Don't forget, "So will My Father also will do to you."
Thanks for your references.

I have considered this before in speaking of damnation and figured that this debt cannot be paid back, so the punishment is perpetual.
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  #67  
Old 06-02-2007, 01:37 PM
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Falla39 Falla39 is offline
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I have not studied the teaching of universal reconciliation but try to be

open to, at least be willing, to study teachings. I don't feel qualified to

expand on the subject. The same with other teaching.

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to

speak, slow to anger". James 1:19, Eccl. 5:2

Many years ago, my dad ordered some song books from a man

going around the country teaching music schools in churches.

In one of the song books was a song I will probably never forget.

Had not seen it before nor since. It was simply titled, "HORNETS"

If a nest of wild hornets were brought to this room and the
critters allowed to go free, You would not need urging to make
yourself scarce, You'd want to get out don't you see.

Cho.

He will not compel you to go, oh, no! He will not compel you to go.
He will not compel you to go gainst your will, He'll just make you
willing to go.

As I was read this thread this song came to my mind. It is not wise

to rush into things, but it might be wise to at least be open and pray

for God to open our understanding to the things HE would have us see.

We think those who have not seen the revelation of the oneness of God

and baptism, sometimes as being close-minded and just don't want to see

it, but we know that if people are open to truth (about anything) God will

reveal it. Jesus said if would ask, it would be given you, seek and you shall

find, knock and the door will be opened.

If Grandma had not listened and looked to see if those things were

true or not, we would have missed out on the greatest experience

we have been priviledged to know.

Just some senior thoughts!

Blessings,

Falla39
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  #68  
Old 06-02-2007, 02:04 PM
PaPaDon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falla39 View Post
I have not studied the teaching of universal reconciliation but try to be

open to, at least be willing, to study teachings. I don't feel qualified to

expand on the subject. The same with other teaching.

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to

speak, slow to anger". James 1:19, Eccl. 5:2

Many years ago, my dad ordered some song books from a man

going around the country teaching music schools in churches.

In one of the song books was a song I will probably never forget.

Had not seen it before nor since. It was simply titled, "HORNETS"

If a nest of wild hornets were brought to this room and the
critters allowed to go free, You would not need urging to make
yourself scarce, You'd want to get out don't you see.

Cho.

He will not compel you to go, oh, no! He will not compel you to go.
He will not compel you to go gainst your will, He'll just make you
willing to go.

As I was read this thread this song came to my mind. It is not wise

to rush into things, but it might be wise to at least be open and pray

for God to open our understanding to the things HE would have us see.

We think those who have not seen the revelation of the oneness of God

and baptism, sometimes as being close-minded and just don't want to see

it, but we know that if people are open to truth (about anything) God will

reveal it. Jesus said if would ask, it would be given you, seek and you shall

find, knock and the door will be opened.

If Grandma had not listened and looked to see if those things were

true or not, we would have missed out on the greatest experience

we have been priviledged to know.

Just some senior thoughts!

Blessings,

Falla39

Thank you for your post, Falla.

I too would rather abide my time as I sought to examine the scriptural validity of the assertions of others, however, when I have once become fully, and irrevocably persuaded of the biblical soundness of a particulat matter, I believe it entirely appropriate to stand up and defend such beliefs. As I have often said unto others, it is my firm belief that the greatest, most awesome of all human endeavors takes place when a mortal, such as we all are, opens the covers of the sacred Writ, and seeks to employ the things found written there in an effort designed to influence and/or persuade the fundamental beliefs of one's fellow man.

We shall each be called to task for the things we teach others as truth, and for this reason it is absolutely imperative that we exert our very best efforts to insure that everything we publish, whether written or oral, is fully supported by the sound principles of the Bible. It has been an extremely disquieting journey for me to be compelled to learn this lesson, for I unwittingly allowed myself to be deceived into embracing the flawed teachings of carnal-minded men for far too long, rather than to seek God's enlightenment. I pray that this same thing not happen to others, although I know that it is repeated many times over with each passing day.

I was not so fortunate as you, for I was not born and raised in this way which so many in our world today think of as being heresy. Indeed, one of the most grievous moments of my life came soon after my conversion to the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal faith, for it was only then that I came to realize that two of the most beloved individuals I had ever known or been associated with, that is my loving parents, had gone to their graves after a lifetime of embracing and following after the flawed teachings of carnal-minded men. Oh! How I continue to grieve for them, knowing all the while that they each, in their own way, loved the Lord with all of their hearts, yet NOT in the power of the Holy Ghost. Only God is able to give me a sense of peace concerning them, yet at the same time, this is chief among the reasons why I am today so adamantly opposed to any and everything which maketh for a lie, and will always stand up in defense of the integrity of the sacred written Oracles of God! I do truly love God's written Word.

May God bless!
Bro Don
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  #69  
Old 06-02-2007, 02:51 PM
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crakjak crakjak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Thanks for your references.

I have considered this before in speaking of damnation and figured that this debt cannot be paid back, so the punishment is perpetual.
Why the assumption? Considering the hopelessness it could create at in fallen humanity. With man it is impossible, but Jesus did pay for something aka the sins of the world.
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  #70  
Old 06-02-2007, 03:25 PM
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Falla39 Falla39 is offline
Wouldn't Take Nothin' For My Journey Now!


 
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Universal Salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaPaDon View Post
Thank you for your post, Falla.

I too would rather abide my time as I sought to examine the scriptural validity of the assertions of others, however, when I have once become fully, and irrevocably persuaded of the biblical soundness of a particulat matter, I believe it entirely appropriate to stand up and defend such beliefs. As I have often said unto others, it is my firm belief that the greatest, most awesome of all human endeavors takes place when a mortal, such as we all are, opens the covers of the sacred Writ, and seeks to employ the things found written there in an effort designed to influence and/or persuade the fundamental beliefs of one's fellow man.

We shall each be called to task for the things we teach others as truth, and for this reason it is absolutely imperative that we exert our very best efforts to insure that everything we publish, whether written or oral, is fully supported by the sound principles of the Bible. It has been an extremely disquieting journey for me to be compelled to learn this lesson, for I unwittingly allowed myself to be deceived into embracing the flawed teachings of carnal-minded men for far too long, rather than to seek God's enlightenment. I pray that this same thing not happen to others, although I know that it is repeated many times over with each passing day.

I was not so fortunate as you, for I was not born and raised in this way which so many in our world today think of as being heresy. Indeed, one of the most grievous moments of my life came soon after my conversion to the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal faith, for it was only then that I came to realize that two of the most beloved individuals I had ever known or been associated with, that is my loving parents, had gone to their graves after a lifetime of embracing and following after the flawed teachings of carnal-minded men. Oh! How I continue to grieve for them, knowing all the while that they each, in their own way, loved the Lord with all of their hearts, yet NOT in the power of the Holy Ghost. Only God is able to give me a sense of peace concerning them, yet at the same time, this is chief among the reasons why I am today so adamantly opposed to any and everything which maketh for a lie, and will always stand up in defense of the integrity of the sacred written Oracles of God! I do truly love God's written Word.

May God bless!
Bro Don
Bro. Don,

What a sensitive, insightful and thought-provoking post. Thank you!

Dear Brother, I pray my post would not sound condemning or condesending

in any way. Many times I guess I just think out loud and put my thoughts

into words perhaps without realizing those reading them might not know

just where I am coming from. Sometimes I myself wonder where I am coming

from! LOL!! For instance, the song, "Hornets". I picture someone in a room

full of them and running to and fro, trying to escape them. For they will bring

pain if they come within reach. But I also picture my dad when he was going

to correct me when I was a child. I would go around and around telling him

I was never going to do it again,(whatever I was being corrected for) and it

wasn't long until if I thought I could get away with climbing those big old

pecan trees, while Daddy was at work. But it was found out that Momma

was telling him. We were children and we thought as children. We wanted

to do what we considered enjoyable and climbing those large pecan trees

were enjoyable....until my brother just younger than myself fell out and

hurt himself. Then the question, "were you climbing in those trees". And

of course I knew there would be punishment. Disobedience brings punish-

ment. We were guilty and there would be a price to pay. But we would not

be utterly destroyed because we disobeyed. We would be punished for OUR

disobediece, but Daddy still loved us. I wondered back then when the punish-

ment was being meted out! LOL!!

Bro. Don, yes I was priviledged to be raised as an Apostolic Oneness Pente-

costal, but to whom is much given shall much be required. I have the uttmost

respect for the people of the church you came out of. You see, it was a

Church of Christ minister that convinced my grandmother, that the scriptures

taught baptism, by immersion She said because she didn't believe other

things they taught so she was not immersed then. But a few years later,

when an old white-haired man of God came to their small town, preaching

the Pentecostal message of Acts 2, she went with her husband and fourteen

year old son, my father, out of curiosity. She heard things she had never

heard before. She searched it out, believed it and obeyed it. She was

already convinced of immersion, now she knew how and in what name it

was to be done. She broke with their family's religious tradition of almost

50 yrs. They thought she had gone off the deep end (lost her mind). But

she had really just finding the mind of Christ. Five generations followed this

mother and son.

Bro. Don, some things we just have to give to God. I believe part of the

work of the tormentor is to make us think about those dear ones who left

this world not knowing the truth as we know it. God is a Righteous Judge.

The Bible tells us His mercy is from everlasting to everlasting. He is God.

What we can't help and what we cannot do anything about, we must trust

into the Hands of a Loving God. My grandfather, my beloved "Pa" never as

far as we knew received the Holy Ghost. He was baptized in Jesus Name.

He did many wonderful things, helping out family at desperate times. They

came out of the Great Depression. Times were hard. God brought them

through. But God used him and my grandmother, and her sister, my great-

aunt and others to help nurture and provide for our large family. They made

a difference in our lives as children growing up. When I read that if one gives

as much as a cup of cold water in His name, they will not lose their reward.

Jesus said to some folks one day that in as much as they had done or not

done some things to His brethren, it was the same as if they had done or

not done it unto Him. We have to look at all the scriptures and allow Him to

help us rightly divide the Word. He knows what it means. It's His Word. God

is no respector of persons. Yes, we reap what we sow, be it good or be it

evil. We've all sinned and come short of God's glory. As children we do not

understand how a parent could "whip" us and make us hurt and still love us.

But as we become mature adults, especially having children, we love our

children unconditionally. This does not mean they don't need to be corrected.

The Bible says that if a father does not correct his son or children, he doesn't

love them. And we're told that every son he loves he chastises. But if a son

refuses to be corrected, he is not Christ's son, but is illigitimate. He is of

another spirit.

One thing, when we become mature adults in Christ, we realize that some

things we thought about as a child are not really that way. The boogie man

is not under our bed and is not going to get us. I think of the scripture that

says "their fear is taught by the precepts of man." How man perceived it.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Also knowledge and under-

standing. The fear of man bringeth a snare (trap).

Just some more thoughts.

Blessings,

Falla39
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