Saved vs striving to be saved??

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Aquila, you scriptures I posted apt bring sanctified at conversion?

Conversion is experienced when a man comes to faith in Christ (through the Spirit's leading) and repents of sin and is baptized. Conversion brings "justification", which is the state of standing "justified" in God's sight... standing as though one has never sinned. This "imputed" righteous standing (the righteousness of Christ) allows one to receive the Holy Ghost and be regenerated. Regeneration brings with it a new nature, therewith a man becomes a "son of God" (adoption). Now the born again believer (the regenerated child of God) must sanctify themselves. After all, their flesh is still fallen flesh... and their carnal mind is still designed to appeas the flesh. This sanctification is a life long endeavour, a spiritual journey, that will take him through many defeats and many victories (all achieved through grace, not human will). Each designed especially to reveal to him his own fallen nature and the new nature residing in his inner man (his spirit). Through the confessions, Bible study, sessions of prayer and repentance, the man's will to be free from the flesh grows as his mind is daily renewed. He becomes entirely focused on the desire to be like Jesus. And therefore strives more heartily to be like Christ through the Spirit... thereby being conformed into Christ's image. The goal is to crush all ego out of him... to kill self... that through him Christ might live. He will be humbled knowing his imperfections all too well when compared to the inner nature of Christ who resides in him. And when he dies... he sheds his mortal shell and is suddenly freed from the fallen impulses and nature of the flesh. A life time of "spiritual body building" has conformed his inner man to the image and likeness of Jesus. Now, with absolutely no weight or hinderance from the flesh... he glides upon the winds of Christlikeness, awaiting his glorification (the resurrection).

Sanctification is a process. Not an event.

Earth is a spiritual gym wherein we are called to develop the likeness of Jesus:

Proverbs 24:16
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again:

After a life time... that's one awesome spiritual workout. Keep pushin'. Oh, you fell? Got some spiritual "muscle failure" under the added weight of temptation? That's cool. No problem. Get up and give me five more reps to be holy before we wrap it up tonight and hit it all over again tomorrow. Welcome to grace.

[Truthseeker]

Excuse my type errors, on phone. Did you see scriptures I posted?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's say Bro. Smith gets "saved". Now he begins the Christian walk, a process or journey called "sanctification". Yet Bro. Smith decides that he is going to fashion himself after the OT law in accordance to how his church preaches it. Now, he is obligated to obey the entire law, but he believes he can pick and choose arbitarily based on his denomination. After a long life of being a devout member of his Pentecostal church, he dies. He is carried by the angels to the very presence of God where his entire life, including thoughts (and the thoughts of others) is replayed in vivid detail. He sees all the places in life where he faithfully obeyed the little laws his church taught him... but glaring before him are the countless times he failed to properly love his wife, his parents, his kids, his friends, his coworkers, his extended family, acquaintances, and even strangers. Strangely... the moments where he failed to properly love hurt the deepest, even deeper than the moments wherein secret sins or struggles were replayed. Jesus speaks to him saying, "Bro. Smith, you were a dynomite Pentecostal!" Proud Bro. Smith puffs his chest out hoping for a reward for wearing a silly suit and cutting his hair a certain way, for modifying his diet to match some "Jerusalem Diet", and for how he never wore shorts or watched television. Then Jesus says, "The problem is Bro. Smith... I'm NOT Pentecostal. Your purpose on earth was two fold... to learn to love with abandon. And through learning to love... become... like me. You are more Pentecostal than you are like me, Bro. Smith." Bro. Smith begins to panic. He begins saying, "Lord, Lord... did I not prophesy in your name, cast out devils in your name, heal the sick in your name, and do many marvelous works in your name???" The very words poured out and rang a somber note in his soul revealing the very nature of what he had allowed himself to become. Then Jesus answers..."Bro. Smith... you're nothing like me. I never knew you. Depart from me you WORKER of iniquity!"

Now... Bro. Smith is confined to Hell. He was "saved"... but somewhere along the line he was waylayed and was conformed into the image of a religion and not the image of Jesus. Thus he failed in his sanctification, the calling to be like Christ.

You might say that he "lost" his salvation. But more accurately... he walked away from it and embraced religion. Some walk away and embrace a life of sin, another religion, or no religion at all. People wander from their faith, they "drift". Unless they wake up and get back on the path... they themselves choose the very path that takes them out from under the blood and leads them to Hell.

Bro. Smith was shocked to realize that life was about one thing... learning to love. Learning to love as Jesus loved... and thereby allowing that love to transform him into the very image and likeness of Jesus. It wasn't about all the rules he prided himself on both discovering and following.

So then you do not believe that once you are saved you are always saved?

As to the subject of sanctification i think we have discussed this topci before and realize that we dont agree on this since i firmly believe it to be an instantaneous work of grace and you (i am assuming) believe it to be progressive.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

So then you do not believe that once you are saved you are always saved?

No, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I believe that one can give up and leave the gym. Or become so unruly they are asked to leave. However, God rarely throws a person out who is sincerely trying.

As to the subject of sanctification i think we have discussed this topci before and realize that we dont agree on this since i firmly believe it to be an instantaneous work of grace and you (i am assuming) believe it to be progressive.

Well... I believe in marrying theology with practical experience. I call it... "applied theology". If a person never progresses into deeper Christlikeness than that which they discovered the night they were born again... they aren't growing in grace. They are still born. I'm willing to wager that after you were born again and time began to pass... you learned more and more about the Word... the will of God... the things of God... the mind of God... and began to understand more and more about Jesus. As a result... I'm willing to wager that you're a stronger Christian today than you were when you were born again. That's progressive sanctification.

Many of us were smokers, drinkers, alcoholics, drug addicts, sex addicts, living in sin, had messed up lives, torn apart families, etc. when we were born again. Yet today... we've matured spiritually and progressed in deeper areas of sanctification and our lives are vastly different. It may have taken some time to work out issues with prayer and dedication. However, it's only getting better as the days roll by.

And... if you feel you've hit a plateau... don't give up. God isn't through with us yet. We're still being molded by the Potter. Day by precious day.

[Aquila]

Grace is a free life time pass to enter this gym. Even after I've failed and dropped the weights, eaten a dozen doughnuts I shouldn't have, and sucked down a gallon of soda pop. The door is opened to me 24/7 and the Galilean Trainer has told me,

"Get in here and get in shape. I know you haven't been workin' out like you should have. I know about the doughnuts too. Just get in here, fall to your knees, and start at your own pace. Just keep pushing. Trust me... after all is said and done... you'll be amazed at the results. You'll be buff just like me. Just don't give up."

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

These verses were written to the born again believer. They were already "saved". Now, keeping one's body under subjection so as to not be cast out by other believers is related to sanctification, not salvation. In addition, so is diligently searching the soul for any root of bitterness.

I look at it like this... many people in Hell could be said to have been "saved". However, they failed the grace of God relating to their sanctification.

Also, sanctification isn't the application of traditions or man made rules. Nor is it applying any combination of OT laws. Sanctification is growing into the fulness of Christ's own image and likeness... becoming a living extention of Jesus in this darkened world. And this is not accomplished through the law. The law will only conform you into the image of ancient Israel. Traditions and man made rules of religion will only conform you into the image of that specific denomination or religion. We are seeking to have Christ formed in us. A living union of spirit with God Himself through Jesus.

Jesus boiled it all down to this...

Loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Then we are to demonstrate that love by loving others as ourselves.

He who loves his neighbour as himself has fulfilled the entire law, for the law was only designed to try to get Israel to do this in the context of their ancient culture. Too many people put the cart before the horse and say that the command to love (the Law of Christ) should lead one to follow the Ten Commandments or some other combination of laws. Wrong. The Ten Commandments and the entirety of all laws were intended to demonstrate God's demand to love others.

So... we're free of the law. We live by grace. We now sanctify ourselves by cultivating the love of Jesus in our hearts towards God and our fellow man. Biblical Christianity is therefore the most universal and applicable faith in the world and can be practiced in ANY cultural context.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's an example of how the Law is not intended to be rigidly applied under grace...

Let's say that you are sheltering Jews from Nazis in Nazi Germany. Suddenly a squad of Nazi soldiers comes to your door and enters your home. They ask you point blank, "Do you have any Jews hiding in this home? Yes or no?"

Now, the Law states, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Meaning, you aren't to lie. Do you tell the truth? Refrain from saying anything thus giving away that you have a Jewish family hiding in your home? Or... do you look them in the eye and say, "No. I have no Jews in my home."?

The law regarding lying was to protect one's integrity and the well being of others. So, to obey the law and allow a family to be murdered would be antithesis to the law's intention. Therefore, love would require that you protect them and leave the Nazi's ignorant of their presence. Yes, I'd vote that you lie in such a situation. God knows the heart and the intention of the deception. Just as David tricked the enemy into thinking he was insane when he wasn't. Just as Jacob tricked Isaac to secure his God given birth right.

That's my take on it. I know, it's an extreme example... but I think it reveals how a rigid application of the law... can be antithesis to the very spirit of the law.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I seem to come up with very differing ideas or examples than most, but here goes anyway.

I feel our walk with God is like a marriage. You loved your wife or husband, when you got married. If one of you get upset or angry with the other, does this mean you are no longer married? If one or the other commits adultry, does this mean you are no longer married? Of course in todays society many would just get a divorce. God does not divorce us.

Put this in a family setting, can a son or daughter ever not be a son or daughter? Jesus uses the story of the prodical son to emphasis this. Even when the son was sowing his wild oats he was still a son.

Once we become a child of God, we are always a child of God from that time forward. Hence Paul spends a great deal of time instructing us on the grace of God. Why then would he make the profound statement, "what shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid". Paul goes on to say in a later chapter "they that walk after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but they that walk after the spirit do mind the things of the spirit".

The fact is not anyone that is walking after the spirit can commit sin. It was a favorite expression my pastor used in my youth, " It is harder to live a life of sin than it is to live for God" I have found in my life that is a true saying. One does not just fall into sin or accidently sin when one is walking after the spirit. There is a detailed process, as James states " Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This brings us the question, can one become lost after one is saved? This must be followed by the question, do we have the right to judge if one is saved or not? This is where we get ourselves in trouble, we have the tendancy to look on the outside, with our list of what we concider right and wrong. The fact is God knows the heart, he looks on the inside.

Lets take one example, church attendance, because we have one verse in the whole bible that says "forsake not the assmebling" we feel we have the right to say, If you miss church your sinning and on your way to hell. Many quote the next verse in Heb. 10 "for if we sin willfuly" and reference the church attendance, but never go to the preceding verse that says, "that we are to provoke unto love and good works" This is what Paul is refering to when he says sin wilfuly, not church attendance.

Is it any wonder so many leave our churchs when all we do is harp on the non essencials as to how long a womens hair is to be or how long her dress should be. We think if we don't tell a women not to run around in a bikini she is going to go run around town in a bikini.

It seems to me we just don't think the Holy Ghost is as powerful as we think it is.

[Aquila]

The highest ethic of holiness is love. After all, God IS love with regards to His very essence. We are to have a love for God. And demonstrate that love through loving others as one's self. If we do that... we have the very principles of the entire law covered.

God cares about how we treat one another. God doesn't care about things like mixed fabrics or if we eat a ham sandwich or not. Let us not major in minors.

When we stand before God to be judged... we will be judged with regards as to if we had truly loved as we should have. And only Jesus demonstrates the kind of love God intends us to have. Jesus is the way of love. The process of becoming increasingly like Jesus through a spiritual oneness with Him is sanctification. It's a life long process. And we do well to remember that and approach it with great patience and introspection.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Conversion is experienced when a man comes to faith in Christ (through the Spirit's leading) and repents of sin and is baptized. Conversion brings "justification", which is the state of standing "justified" in God's sight... standing as though one has never sinned. This "imputed" righteous standing (the righteousness of Christ) allows one to receive the Holy Ghost and be regenerated. Regeneration brings with it a new nature, therewith a man becomes a "son of God" (adoption). Now the born again believer (the regenerated child of God) must sanctify themselves. After all, their flesh is still fallen flesh... and their carnal mind is still designed to appeas the flesh. This sanctification is a life long endeavour, a spiritual journey, that will take him through many defeats and many victories (all achieved through grace, not human will). Each designed especially to reveal to him his own fallen nature and the new nature residing in his inner man (his spirit). Through the confessions, Bible study, sessions of prayer and repentance, the man's will to be free from the flesh grows as his mind is daily renewed. He becomes entirely focused on the desire to be like Jesus. And therefore strives more heartily to be like Christ through the Spirit... thereby being conformed into Christ's image. The goal is to crush all ego out of him... to kill self... that through him Christ might live. He will be humbled knowing his imperfections all too well when compared to the inner nature of Christ who resides in him. And when he dies... he sheds his mortal shell and is suddenly freed from the fallen impulses and nature of the flesh. A life time of "spiritual body building" has conformed his inner man to the image and likeness of Jesus. Now, with absolutely no weight or hinderance from the flesh... he glides upon the winds of Christlikeness, awaiting his glorification (the resurrection).

Sanctification is a process. Not an event.

Earth is a spiritual gym wherein we are called to develop the likeness of Jesus:

Proverbs 24:16
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again:

After a life time... that's one awesome spiritual workout. Keep pushin'. Oh, you fell? Got some spiritual "muscle failure" under the added weight of temptation? That's cool. No problem. Get up and give me five more reps to be holy before we wrap it up tonight and hit it all over again tomorrow. Welcome to grace.

While i agree that we as christians retain our carnal/fleshly nature after we are saved where does the bible ever say that we must retain it all of our life?

Also where does the bible call sanctification a process instead of an act?

Why must we ever be defeated in our christian journey?

[bbyrd009]