THANK GOD 4 Bush Policy of Enhanced Interrogation

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

“President Bush appreciated the invite, but has chosen in his post-presidency to remain largely out of the spotlight,” Bush spokesman David Sherzer told POLITICO in an email Tuesday night. “He continues to celebrate with all Americans this important victory in the war on terror.”

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...121226979.html

Here's the funny thing Pressing On---

Seascapes thinks she can know the motives of W for declining. "He knows he doesn't deserve credit." Wow, now that's an astute observation! The lack of logic is amazing.

The very fact that Obama invited W to join him in celebrating this moment is an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that Bush played a role! DUH!

In his speech Sunday night Obama said "WE removed the Taliban..." WE? Oh really? I didn't realize HE was involved in the removal of the Taliban! Yet, there is no "WE" when it comes to taking OBL out?

It's clearly apparent that folks like SS and Light are so irrationally devoted to partisanship that the easy, fair and obvious observation that Bush played a key role in this moment is lost on them.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Seascapes

...
Thanks pelathais for your information, which proved my point.

No, this information proved that your source, the "New American Magazine" had plainly lied and distorted the words of President Bush.

We can't even find "The New American Magazine's" words as quoted within the interview. We have to cut and paste snippets to get that "quote." Thus, the "quote" is a lie.

Plain and simple. A lie. It's one of those Internet myths that has been debunked for years. See http://www.911myths.com/html/ignored.html again.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Light

I noticed you are very careful with the wording of your post. How about VP? Bubba left the bad mouthing to the cheeeene and his loud mouth daughter.


You are so wrong in your assumption Bush was my president but he did not have my respect. Obama is my president and I am slowly loosing respect because of his continued compromise with the republicans.

I thought Deke was rather plain spoken - even out spoken in that post. Nothing "carefully worded" about it. It was a straight shot. Why don't you tackle his points straight on?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Light

One doesn't need to read it just watch him say it. Watch the look on Bush face as he talks.

I'm hearing impaired and thus I can't really evaluate the videos that get posted. Go through the whole interview, though. Maybe there's a benefit to my disability? I have to read and reread what is said to understand. My take on this follows the whole discussion, not just sound bites and snippets.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Light

That very thought crosses my mind every time I respond to right wing nuts.

canam and coadie are just plain ol' "nuts."

Hey! The other day coadie made a couple posts about "Light and Pelathais" and spoke disparagingly of both of us.

You can't be all bad, Light. Not if coadie lumps you in with me!

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

First, let me make myself clear; War doesn't lead to success, it leads to more War. Dropping nuclear bombs on Japan is a forever held memory with the Japanese. Bombing Germany is a forever held memory with the Germans. Conquering Nations and Countries becomes a Historical Memorial that incites future Generations to kill one another. If you don't believe this, take a look at the Middle East. All of the killing today is because of Revenge and Hate from the past.

War is sometimes a necessary evil. David said that God "teaches my hands to war". Dropping the bomb on Japan was a calculated decision that was based on weighing one million American casualties to subdue a Japanese enemy that declared war on us unprovoked and undeserved and cost us tens of thousands of our American GIs versus the loss of hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives. A difficult decision for President Truman, but the right decision. Japan wouldnt even capitulate eight days after the first bomb! If the Japanese need to blame anyone it was their own Emperor and military leadership who stubbornly refused to surrender unconditionally. I would also say that in light of history the Japanese have done quite well since the end of the war, something they would not have granted to us or any of their enemies had they won. Your argument goes against the vast majority's view of history.

You think modern day Germans regret losing the war to the allies? Do you think they blame the US and the UK for the loss of life that they as a nation instigated with the evil vision of the Nazis to conquer the world? It took war to defeat evil. It still takes war to defeat evil. Pacifism would not have stopped Hitler, Imperial Japan, the Soviet Union, Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah or Al Qaeda.

And if the Japanese and Germans are so bitter towards us and our actions in WWII have set the stage for "future generations to kill us", why are they now some of our closest allies militarily and economically? You are befuddling.

And we don't "conquer" nations. We subdue evil men and leaders, and then we rebuild their nations and we hand their nations back to them at a great cost of American lives and treasure better than the way we found them. This is historical fact that cannot be denied. Tell me, who have we "conquered" in our long and glorious history of liberty and freedom?

War is a Band-Aid and does not fix the problem, and people like you who beat the “War Drum” are the reason innocent people will die. You are setting the stage for a nuclear disaster that will kill millions, maybe billions. The first killing in Scripture created and led to a future blood bath of countless people, and this march has never stopped. The Bible even supports the Historical proof of revenge. Today, mankind is capable of complete annihilation from our Nuclear Submarine arsenal, alone.

How many pacifists have stopped people like Hitler? How many peace protestors have removed dictators and despots, imperialists and bloodthirsty men from their seats of power who lust for more land and treasure from their neighbors and their own people at the cost of many millions of lives?

Innocent people die in every war. Its unavoidable. Its unfortunate. No decent human relishes in the death of any innocent bystander. But in the big picture, less people die as a result of "just cause" wars than to allow dangerous dictators and terrorists to continue their slaughter of innocents.

And since the onset of nuclear weapons the cost of lives due to war has decreased. WWII alone brought on the death of 60 million people in less than six years. We have not seen a single war since come close to such numbers primarily because of nuclear deterrent. It is a weapon with the potential to destroy billions, yes. And this is why we must continue to fight the evil that is in the world so that they may never obtain such potential. The USA has proven that in our possession, nuclear arms are safe. The only time they have been used was when there was no other viable option in Japan in 1945.

"People like me" are the reason we are still free and the world is safer. People like you would allow the Hitlers and the Castros and the Husseins and the Stalins of the world to terrorize the world unchecked and unopposed. Yet you live in freedom and comfort because of "people like me" who are willing to die for you so you can freely express your flawed views without repercussions.

Second, it's obvious you don't know the whole story behind Pat Tillman. Do the research and you'll find your trusted politicians were guilty of a total cover-up, including Dick Cheney and the President, using Pat as a "Hero" smokescreen to manipulate the American People.

I am aware of the controversy surrounding PT. In every war, mistakes are made. I believe in the end there was no evidence that the PT controversy reached the White House.

Third, even President Bush apologized for his premature assessment of the War in Iraq. This was simply another ploy to draw us, the American People, further into a disastrous War. This whole Political Act of Bush on this ship was to stir World emotion. You say they ALL believed it; where are they today? Where's Colin Powell? Where are all those Countries who ran to the fire of War at first, but backed out later? People began to see those past Bush vendettas, oil, and the fact that no WMD’s were found as reasons to withdraw support.

Can you offer one shred of evidence that ANYONE of significance in power in Washington, Berlin, Paris, Moscow, London or at the UN was declaring that Hussein DIDN'T possess WMDs? You can't just accept that everyone got it wrong. Saddam Hussein will forever be one of the stupidest dictators in history. All he had to do was call the bluff---he could've called in Keith Olbermann, Al Franken, Chris Matthews, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, John Kerry, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, et al to take a tour of all of his facilities AND SHOWED THEM THE FACT THAT HE HAD NO WMDS and he would be in power today probably and definitely still alive. Yet, he continued the charade right up until the final deadline knowing that the Allies would go to war with him.

Past Bush vendettas? Really? All you got is Bush-hate? Oh yeah, ALL THAT OIL WE STOLE from the Iraqis! Look at how that worked out for us! Have you checked the gas prices lately? Where's the oil we stole?

Your statement about Iraq being a better place; how do you know this? Have you gone there and spent time among the Iraqis? You are probably relying on biased News Media and Talk Show hosts who are paid big dollars for a radical opinion. Try listening to somebody else besides Rush Limbagh. My son spent a year there, and Iraq is full of chaos and death. The death toll of Iraqis (non-combatant) varies from 100,000 to 1,000,000. When we leave this Country, and many years go by, then we will truly know. You make it sound like the Earth is becoming the Garden of Eden because we’ve “Got them on the RUN!”

NFSale, look, we have an elite, liberal leaning press that would love nothing more than to highlight a crumbling Iraq, filled with violence and chaos. We would have nightly stories of how Bush ushered in an age of utter destruction and lawlessness to this poor country that was harming no one before we showed up. Instead we have witnessed several free and peaceful elections, transfers of power, shared and unified governement that has pulled Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds together. The insurgency was defeated. Our troops have transferred duties to Iraqi police and military. American deaths in Iraq are at an all time low. We will be pulling out troops soon. The problem is that Bush haters wanted and demanded overnight success rather than accepting that it takes time to turn a nation like Iraq around. Your civilian death numbers are highly suspect. They mainly come from conspiracy websites and uber-left organizations that couldnt prove those numbers to save their lives. Iam sure Iraq is not a paradise, anymore than NY City is or South Central LA is, but compared to the Hussein years, a much, much better place. And liberated.

As far as my media sources, let's see, I read the USA Today almost every morning (not known for being a right wing media source), I listen to NPR many mornings at home as I fix breakfast for my kids and as I take my kids to school (about 30-45 minutes worth). I listen to Laura Ingraham in the late mornings in my car or office, Rush in afternoon in my car or office from 11-2, Sean later from 2-4 in my car or office, NPR again from 4-5. When I'm home I try to catch Chris Matthews on MSNBC, Bret Beier on Fox, OReilly on Fox. If I get up early enough I watch an hour or so of Morning Joe on MSNBC. That's not a daily lineup but throughout the week that's mostly what I listen to/watch when I do seek to find news. Occasionally I watch CNN and sometimes the first 30 minutes of the Today Show in NBC. Sometimes some events on C-Span. But often I have only time to read some of the paper and catch some things on the radio as I'm driving from one place to another. I am an info buff, but certainly not a lopsided "right wing talk radio only" kind of guy. My wife often asks me why I watch liberal on MSNBC and others (I used to watch Bill Maher when he was on ABC and Keith O when he was on MSNBC). Its because I like to hear both sides of the arguments. And the more I hear liberalarguments, the more convinced I am of conservatism and its tenets.

So you could not have been more wrong about where I get my info.[/B]

DB, I really don’t have anything against you, but your statement is way overboard with Political Jargon that is biased towards the Republican agenda. Try getting an opinion of your own.

I have no personal axe to grind with you either, how could I? I dont even know you. But I am passionate about what I believe. And I am a conservative first, Republican second. And I have voted for conservative Democrats before locally and state wide. I have yet to have a chance to vote for a conservative Democrat nationally. They dont seem to get very far in the Dmeocratic Party nationally. And I am more willing to criticize Republicans when I see them abandon conservative ideals.

And I have plenty of my own opinions. But thanks for the sincere admonishment to get my own. 'Preciate it.

[Fiyahstarter]

Deacon slays it!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Fiyahstarter

Deacon slays it!

[Walks_in_islam]

General I'm pretty sure that there are many means of torture that don't pose any "real danger to physical health" of interrogated suspects - there are some quite amusing ones that I have discovered in my overseas adventures.

Either our constitution means something or not. If not, we can go ahead and publicly declare it does not and sink to back to the depths that our founders pulled us out of. It is kindly requested that you simply keep your right hand down and dont bother to swear to uphold that document and simply don your uniform and join the rest of the "uniformed" world, dime a dozen and can be found in any country anywhere, in including torture in your list of interrogation tools. Excluding them makes us special, including them makes us no better and exactly like anyone else. We used to be special. Are you now proud that we can torture prisoners like drug lords or gangsters? Good job and muy buen jefe!

Either way, you add that to our list of tools, and you take AMERICA and what America used to be down just one more notch, and then thanking God for it? (laughing) Thank the inquisition for the "enhanced interrogation techniques" because thats where they came from.

The inquisitioners thought they were acting on "God's behalf" also.

We are supposed to bring and example liberty, rights, self-determination to the world. That is what we stood for. Listen to the likes of you crowing about what we are bringing to the world. Bleh. Dont you dare compare freeing Europe from Nazi Germany or freeing Asia from Japan imperialists to what we are doing today and disgrace the couragious people who did it.

Going to war with a country because they started using "bundled currencies" for oil trading because it devalued our currency (due to our own excessive debt and spending) is not the same thing as freeing oppressed nations. Failing to admit that our excessive spending and debt made us vulnerable to such a nation and as such undermines our fundamental security and stability is a shortcoming of our own making.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

As more information about Sunday's mission that led to the death of OBL and the extraction of his body, we are finding out that the seeds for it were sown through the enhanced interrogations of Khaled Sheik Mohammed and other detainees at Gitmo. KSM identified that OBL had a courier and gave up some names during the Bush years that eventually led to identifying the courier that led to finding OBL's hideout.

Bush was under a lot of criticism and pressure from liberal and media elites to discontinue waterboarding and other methods of interrogation that were labeled as "below who we are" as a nation. There was no proof that these methods posed any real danger to the physical health of those who were interrogated. Yet Bush critics couldn't say enough to continue the drumbeat against such tactics.

One thing that I loved about Bush was he would stick to his guns when he felt that what he was doing was right for the country. I didn't agree with a lot of the domestic and fiscal policies of the Bush years, but the War on Terror was well executed. I'm thankful Bush didn't cave to the PC crowd and kept the pressure on the terrorists and their leaders and the detainees.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

General I'm pretty sure that there are many means of torture that don't pose any "real danger to physical health" of interrogated suspects - there are some quite amusing ones that I have discovered in my overseas adventures.

Either our constitution means something or not. If not, we can go ahead and publicly declare it does not and sink to back to the depths that our founders pulled us out of. It is kindly requested that you simply keep your right hand down and dont bother to swear to uphold that document and simply don your uniform and join the rest of the "uniformed" world, dime a dozen and can be found in any country anywhere, in including torture in your list of interrogation tools. Excluding them makes us special, including them makes us no better and exactly like anyone else. We used to be special. Are you now proud that we can torture prisoners like drug lords or gangsters? Good job and muy buen jefe!

Either way, you add that to our list of tools, and you take AMERICA and what America used to be down just one more notch, and then thanking God for it? (laughing) Thank the inquisition for the "enhanced interrogation techniques" because thats where they came from.

The inquisitioners thought they were acting on "God's behalf" also.

We are supposed to bring and example liberty, rights, self-determination to the world. That is what we stood for. Listen to the likes of you crowing about what we are bringing to the world. Bleh. Dont you dare compare freeing Europe from Nazi Germany or freeing Asia from Japan imperialists to what we are doing today and disgrace the couragious people who did it.

Going to war with a country because they started using "bundled currencies" for oil trading because it devalued our currency (due to our own excessive debt and spending) is not the same thing as freeing oppressed nations. Failing to admit that our excessive spending and debt made us vulnerable to such a nation and as such undermines our fundamental security and stability is a shortcoming of our own making.

We can and probably should have a continuing debate as to whether or not "water boarding" is really "torture." The very fact that it's debatable demonstrates that there is a huge difference between "water boarding" and the kinds of treatment that... say, John McCain endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese. That was torture.

As you pointed out yourself, Wii, much of the "enhanced interrogation" stuff doesn't really harm the prisoner in any permanent fashion. And from all accounts - from even journalists who have voluntarily been "water boarded" - it's just strenuous and disorienting to the point of being frightening, but no harm is done.

Comparing our "wars" today to WWII is difficult - but not for the reasons that you have offered. Remember, Afghanistan did attack us several times without us even responding in any real way until 9/11. When they attacked us (really just the rulers of Afghanistan attacked us) on 9/11 we then got serious about eliminating Afghanistan as a base for world-wide terror operations. We have been successful in doing that too, so far.

Iraq is a more difficult case. However, Saddam never complied with the terms of the 1991 ceasefire. Thus, under the Laws of War, the First Gulf War never ended. Over a dozen UN Security Council Resolutions and a Special Joint Session of Congress backed military action against Saddam.

Libya... well, that one is a bit more difficult. Qaddafi did attack US troops in Germany and he did deliberately blow up a civilian airliner over Lockerbie, Scotland. He was a big supporter of terror, but after Saddam's overthrow he also was changing his ways. I certainly don't support him being in power... but I confess that I'm not really comfortable with the way my government has handled this.

Either take him out - if the case can be made to take him out... or leave him alone and isolate his influence. C'mon! Navy SEAL Team 6 could take him out (slight exaggeration, maybe). But the Marines offshore working in conjunction with the "rebels" could certainly do the trick. Why fool around and cause more Libyan people to suffer? Either get with it or back off entirely. ... just imho.

And... we really haven't gone to war with anyone over "bundled currencies." If you are referring to Libya, even with all of their oil reserves, they're a tiny blip in regard to US trade and currency valuation. The biggest strain on the US dollar right now (outside of our own excesses as you've pointed out) is the way China, our 2nd biggest trading partner, pegs their currency to ours.