Do You Believe in Predetermination?

[LaVonne]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Why aren't you calling it - Predestination?

That was my first question...

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Predestination refers to a divine order that something must come to pass. Predetermination refers to the settling of events before they happen, planning a specific outcome.

Predetermination is practiced by man, not a deity. So through the choices of ancestors, a person could be born in total spiritual darkness, with no hope of finding the Truth.

Bump for Carey

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by Chan

PREDESTINATION IS NOT GOD PREDESTINING PEOPLE TO GO TO HELL!!!!

EVERYONE IS BORN GOING TO HELL AND, IF LEFT ALONE, THEY WILL SURELY GO THERE. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF GOD BUT BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN THAT IS IMPUTED TO HIS PROGENY.

PREDESTINATION IS GOD HAVING CHOSEN FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD TO INTERFERE WITH THE WILL OF SOME HUMANS IN ORDER TO SAVE THEM. GOD'S CHOICE TO LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE TO THEIR NATURAL STATE IS NOT GOD PREVENTING ANYONE FROM BEING SAVED. GOD DOES NOT PREVENT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO BE SAVED FROM BEING SAVED - ONLY THOSE WITH WHOSE WILL GOD SPECIFICALLY INTERFERES WANT TO BE SAVED.

With all due respect to Bro. Chancellor, I disagree with the way this stated. It seems to imply everyone who is born is predestined, or predetermined to be lost upon their demise. I was once an adherent to the Branham Mesage and, it was, in fact, his teachings concerning predestination that caused me to see the error of those teachings. Branham taught that those "predestined" to be in the Bride (those of the righteous seed) would be saved and those predestined to be lost (those of the Serpents' Seed) woul be lost. Nothing at all could change that. I began to study this in the light of Scriptures and I began to see that all people, everyone who would ever be born, was (and are) "predestined" to eternal Life. However, sin entered the garden and humanity became marred with sin.
However, we are not born with sinful nature. Sin is a learned process. The Bible says we are born in sin and SHAPEN in inquity. This is to say that we are born in a sinful enviornment. We learn how to sin... we are, in affect, conditioned to sin by our surrounding. I was born in Florida... but am not a Floridian. I was raised in Indiana and it was there that I was raised. I was "shapened" in Indiania so, I am, for all intents and purposes, a Hoosier for that was the enviornment that I was raised in. So, children are born without sin, with innocence, but later, in their formative years that are "shapened" to comit sins. Swipe a piece of Bubble Gum, tell a whit lie, etc. They learn to sin by their surrondings. Later in life, when able to commrehend the difference between right and wrong, they are held accountable for their sins.

But they are not born with a sinful nature. If so, then, if they die in infancy, they will be lost. Because they are sinners. But God is more just than that. He wrote everyones name in the Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world so that, should one die in infancy, they would return to God. The names of every decendent of Adam was written in the Lambs Book of Life before we were born. We were born of God before we were born in the natural. Thats the reason Jesus said to Nicodemus "Ye must be born AGAIN". Like Adam we are born of God, we learn sin and die a spiritual death. But through Jesus Christ we can be born of God a second time. And Jesus made it clear in John 3 that he was in no way speaking to Nicodemus of the natural birth.

I go back to my earlier illustration. My brother and I plan a trip to Florida. We are "predestinated" to go to Florida. He drives I-75 and I drive 1-59. I take a right at Birmingham and end up in Texas. WE were both predestined to go to Florida. He followed the signs and I, being the stubborn, rebellious sort that I am, refuse all instruction and fail to arrive at my predetermined destination. So it is with life. We were born of God (before we were naturally born) and, because sin entered the world we take on (not "born with") a sinful nature and die a spiritual death. Somewhere along the line we hear the Gospel. Some accept, many more refuse and rebel and are ultimately lost. Those who accept are born again (born spiritually for the second time) according to Jesus' words in John 3.

John 3:16 shows that whosoever can be saved. Not a select few, but whosoever.

I don't agree with those who teach some are predestined to be saved, and others are to be lost. Nor do I agree that all are predestined to be lost and that, some, just might get saved along the way. No, I believe the Scriptures bear out that God wills that all be saved and has predestined it to be so. Many, however, refuse Him and are lost, not by God's choice, but by their own.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

With all due respect to Bro. Chancellor, I disagree with the way this stated. It seems to imply everyone who is born is predestined, or predetermined to be lost upon their demise.

It does not imply predestination or predetermination at all. It is a simple statement of Adam's sin being imputed to the entire human race. Every human being is born lost, born dead in trespasses and sins. Predestination has to do with God choosing for some people (His elect) to interfere with their will so that they will want to be saved. For those whom God leaves to their natural state (in other words, He does not predestine or predetermine them to anything), they will die in their sins because it is never in their will to want God.

I was once an adherent to the Branham Mesage and, it was, in fact, his teachings concerning predestination that caused me to see the error of those teachings. Branham taught that those "predestined" to be in the Bride (those of the righteous seed) would be saved and those predestined to be lost (those of the Serpents' Seed) woul be lost. Nothing at all could change that. I began to study this in the light of Scriptures and I began to see that all people, everyone who would ever be born, was (and are) "predestined" to eternal Life. However, sin entered the garden and humanity became marred with sin.

I don't know much about Branham and I don't agree with the serpent seed doctrine.

However, we are not born with sinful nature.

You are promoting the Pelagian heresy with this statement. Paul said we are born dead in trespasses and sins.

Sin is a learned process. The Bible says we are born in sin and SHAPEN in inquity. This is to say that we are born in a sinful enviornment. We learn how to sin... we are, in affect, conditioned to sin by our surrounding. I was born in Florida... but am not a Floridian. I was raised in Indiana and it was there that I was raised. I was "shapened" in Indiania so, I am, for all intents and purposes, a Hoosier for that was the enviornment that I was raised in. So, children are born without sin, with innocence, but later, in their formative years that are "shapened" to comit sins. Swipe a piece of Bubble Gum, tell a whit lie, etc. They learn to sin by their surrondings. Later in life, when able to commrehend the difference between right and wrong, they are held accountable for their sins.

No, it doesn't mean we are born in a "sinful environment" it means that it is our very nature to sin.

But they are not born with a sinful nature.

I disagree.

If so, then, if they die in infancy, they will be lost.

Unless a particular infant is elect of God, yes. Why? Because Adam's sin was imputed to the whole of humanity. In effect, we sinned in Adam.

Because they are sinners. But God is more just than that. He wrote everyones name in the Book of Life BEFORE the foundation of the world so that, should one die in infancy, they would return to God. The names of every decendent of Adam was written in the Lambs Book of Life before we were born. We were born of God before we were born in the natural. Thats the reason Jesus said to Nicodemus "Ye must be born AGAIN". Like Adam we are born of God, we learn sin and die a spiritual death. But through Jesus Christ we can be born of God a second time. And Jesus made it clear in John 3 that he was in no way speaking to Nicodemus of the natural birth.

I disagree. I don't believe everyone's name was written in the Book of Life and then, as people sin, their names are erased. I believe that only the names of the elect are written in the Book of Life. But, yes, in order to have the benefits of that actually applied individually, the individual must be born again. However, God will make sure that this happens and the proof of this is in Jesus' statement that all whom the Father has given Him WILL come to Him.

I go back to my earlier illustration. My brother and I plan a trip to Florida. We are "predestinated" to go to Florida. He drives I-75 and I drive 1-59. I take a right at Birmingham and end up in Texas. WE were both predestined to go to Florida. He followed the signs and I, being the stubborn, rebellious sort that I am, refuse all instruction and fail to arrive at my predetermined destination. So it is with life. We were born of God (before we were naturally born) and, because sin entered the world we take on (not "born with") a sinful nature and die a spiritual death. Somewhere along the line we hear the Gospel. Some accept, many more refuse and rebel and are ultimately lost. Those who accept are born again (born spiritually for the second time) according to Jesus' words in John 3.

WRONG! If you were predestined to be in Florida, you would be in Florida.

John 3:16 shows that whosoever can be saved. Not a select few, but whosoever.

John 3:16 says that whosoever believeth will not perish. Now, who are the whosoever? The elect. Why? Because they are the only ones who will believe.

I don't agree with those who teach some are predestined to be saved, and others are to be lost. Nor do I agree that all are predestined to be lost and that, some, just might get saved along the way. No, I believe the Scriptures bear out that God wills that all be saved and has predestined it to be so. Many, however, refuse Him and are lost, not by God's choice, but by their own.

NO! Just because some are predestined to be saved DOES NOT MEAN that everyone else is predestined to be lost. This silly notion that "some just might get saved along the way" is a vile doctrine that essentially says MAN is the final arbiter of his own salvation and, thus, is sovereign over God.