Quote:
Originally Posted by shazeep
but still, a prevarication--of sorts--so, come on
"I can tell if someone is lost or saved by ________." ?
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"I can tell someone is lost by whether or not they believe and follow the doctrine of the apostles. I can ASSUME with a fair amount of certainty a person is 'saved' if they are led by the Spirit of God manifested by obedience to the Word of God."
Q: Are Muslims saved, or lost?
A: Muslims do not believe and follow the teachings of the apostles. THEREFORE they are BY DEFINITION not saved, ie LOST.
Syllogism:
All the saved are Christians.
All Muslims are not Christians.
Therefore, Muslims are not saved.
Or in other words,
All P are M.
No S is M.
Therefore, no S is P. (P for 'the saved', M for 'Christians', S for 'Muslims')
This is a valid syllogism. It is under the rule "CAMESTRES" (you do understand simple logic, right?). Here's a Venn diagram of my argument:
(Notice, the initial premise of the syllogism is NOT 'All Christians are saved', but 'all the saved are Christians'. The category 'saved' is included WITHIN the category 'Christians', but that does not mean one, some, half, or even most 'Christians' are in the category of 'saved'. IT ONLY means that ALL the saved in this era are Christians.)
Do you deny the conclusion, that no Muslim is saved? Then you must overthrow the major or the minor premise of my argument. That is, you must demonstrate one or both of them as FALSE. You would need to PROVE that 'some saved are NOT Christians', you would need to prove that 'some Muslims are Christians'. Now, it is PATENTLY ABSURD to suggest that any Muslim is also a Christian unless you REDEFINE the term Muslim or REDEFINE the term Christian.
So I suppose you would like to redefine the term 'Christian', perhaps make 'Christian' to include people who utterly deny being Christians but instead identify as Muslims?
OR perhaps you deny that all the saved are Christians? Perhaps you believe that people can be saved without being a Christian? That is, one can be saved WITHOUT FOLLOWING JESUS CHRIST? IS that your position?
Which is it? Are Muslims also Christians? Or can a person be saved without following Christ?
Now, if Muslims are MUSLIMS, and NOT CHRISTIANS, and if a person CANNOT be saved without following Christ, then it is PURE LOGIC (no emotion involved whatsoever, even Spock would buy this without a moment's hesitation) that no MUSLIM IS SAVED.
Now then, it is WRONG to declare that?
If it is true, then it CANNOT be wrong to state it, unless it is wrong to state TRUTH!!!! IF it is FALSE, then it MIGHT be wrong to state it as true, that is, IF one knew it to be FALSE.
Which is it? Is it true? Or false? If false, then PROVE IT! Prove my syllogism is FALSE, invalid, unsound, untrue.
Now, let's go further, shall we? Is it WRONG, or MEAN SPIRITED, for a person to declare what they BELIEVE to be truth? Is it not rather COMMENDABLE that a person would speak what they believe to be TRUE, even though it is politically incorrect and might upset folks and might possibly even put their well being in danger? Even if it were false, could you FAULT a person for declaring what they truly believed to be TRUTH?
Or do you think it is more better (lol) that is, more commendable for a person NOT TO SPEAK TRUTH, to HIDE what they believe is true, so as either not to 'upset' others, or out of fear, or some other such reason? Which is better, for a person to be HONEST, SINCERE, and FORTHRIGHT about what they believe is a definite TRUTH? OR to be dishonest, not forthright, dissembling about what they think is truth?
OBVIOUSLY, to be honest and speak what one believes is truth is BETTER and MORE COMMENDABLE and MORE NOBLE and MORE HONOURABLE than for one to DISSEMBLE, LIE, hide the truth, NOT BE HONEST.
THEREFORE, your assault on us for speaking what we believe to be the GOSPEL TRUTH concerning whether or not Muslims are saved or lost is ILLOGICAL and UN-NOBLE. You condemn us for doing that which is clearly more noble and more honest than being lying dissembling hypocrites, which apparently is what you seem to prefer us to be!!!!
Now, suppose my conclusion IS IN FACT truth. Then you are obviously fighting against truth. And therefore clearly in the wrong.
But now suppose my conclusion is IN FACT FALSE. YET it seems CLEARLY TRUE to me, as being not only scriptural but LOGICAL AND RATIONAL (as proven above already with a simple syllogism and Venn diagram). So what am I to do? Speak what I believe to be FALSE? Or speak what I believe to be TRUE? What would you prefer, that I and the rest of us speak the truth as we believe it? Or would you prefer we DENY WHAT WE SEE AS TRUTH and instead LIE?
Now, you have said the issue of who is saved and who is lost is moot. The 'real issue' is the fact that we say Muslims are lost. So, according to you, saying some religion's adherents are not saved is 'wrong' and is contrary to OUR OWN LORD'S TEACHING.
Is that what you are saying? Please show us where the Lord Jesus Christ, His apostles, or His prophets, ever rebuked ANYONE for saying idolaters, worshippers of false gods, adherents to false religions, are 'not saved'?
Do you not remember what Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well? He said her people don't know what they worship, although they all claimed to worship YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Paul said whatever the nations sacrifice to, they sacrifice to DEMONS. The entire Bible resonates with the message that all the nations are LOST, ignorant of the true God, worshipping idols of their own making. And further, that God has called a people to BE SAVED. Those people are called BY THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL, by the PREACHING OF THE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST. Paul said the preaching of the cross is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.
Therefore, anyone who denies THE CROSS denies the power of God unto salvation. If the preaching of the cross is the mechanism God has chosen to SAVE PEOPLE, then if a person DENIES THE CROSS, they have DENIED SALVATION and must necessarily as a mater of simple definition BE LOST. The law of non-contradiction REQUIRES that to be the case, there is NO WAY AROUND IT.
So it is NOT contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ to declare that the adherents of a FALSE RELIGION, following a FALSE PROPHET, are 'lost', it is in fact faithfulness to the teachings of Jesus Christ to affirm that HE IS THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER (as He Himself declared).
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