The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

This is a great discussion: I have been following some of it for awhile. It has led me
to think: just when does Saturday (Sabbath) begin: on the evening, say, of our
Friday; or the evening of our Saturday? And whose calendar should we use in
arriving to ANY conclusion? How many calendars, that we know of, have been
created or destroyed in the last 2K years?

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!

This is a great discussion: I have been following some of it for awhile. It has led me
to think: just when does Saturday (Sabbath) begin: on the evening, say, of our
Friday; or the evening of our Saturday? And whose calendar should we use in
arriving to ANY conclusion? How many calendars, that we know of, have been
created or destroyed in the last 2K years?

Brother Villa

According to the Bible, the day begins at evening. A 24 hour day ( a whole day) therefore consists of an evening part (night time part), and a day time part. Now, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. It would therefore begin at what we call Friday evening, and continue until the first day of the week, which would begin at what we call Saturday evening.

Calendars have changed somewhat over the centuries (I think the latest change was in the 1700s where several days were dropped off the calendar in order to correct for proper leap years). But the seven day week hasn't.

God showed Israel which day was the correct Sabbath in the wilderness, by giving a double portion on the sixth day. So they knew when the Sabbath was. Jesus likewise kept the Sabbath (otherwise He would have been a sinner).

And Jesus kept the Sabbath on the same day all the other Jews kept the Sabbath. And it is well known that the Jews kept the Sabbath on the day before what the Romans called "the day of the Sun", which they identified as the first day of the week. For several hundred years after the death of the apostles, Christians debated the issue of Sabbath vs Sunday. Sabbath was always considered the day before Sunday. And Sunday in that time has remained the same Sunday as it is in our time.

So that would mean the Sabbath begins at Friday evening, and runs until Saturday evening, at which point the (Biblical) first day of the week would begin.

This understanding of the days beginning in the evening by the way has continued for two thousand years among the religious Sunday keepers with their "vespers" (evening) service. Sabbath vespers occurs Friday evening, and Sunday vespers occurs Saturday evening. They have retained the liturgical concept of the day beginning with the evening part, even though they secular society has been using a midnight to midnight method of starting and stopping the days.

There are some disagreements as to what exactly constitutes the "evening", however. These disputes by the way were going on in the first century in Judea even! Some would say it begins the moment of sunset. Others that it begins when it is fully dark. The Pharisees reached a compromise and said it is after sunset when at least three stars can be visible in the dusky sky (ie twilight). The Bible does not specify, as far as I know, the EXACT MOMENT, it simply says "evening". As the sun sets, the current day is receding and the next day is "dawning" or coming on. There is a brief transition period between one day and the next .Thus, sometimes the Bible speaks of the evening of one day as the evening of the next day. An example would be here:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
(Leviticus 23:26-32)

The Day of Atonement is on the tenth day of the seventh month. It would begin in the evening that ended the ninth day, and last from one evening to the next. In one verse God said it would be in the tenth day, and in a following verse He said it would be in the ninth day in the even. So the evening starting the tenth day was the same evening ending the ninth day.

Sunset is a pretty clear marker, there is no doubt whatsoever that you are in the "evening" once the sun has set. From sunset to full night there is not much time, that is the transition time from one day to the next, during which the Sabbath is beginning (if it is the evening that ends the sixth day of the week, ie Friday evening).

The commandment is to "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." Holy means "separated", therefore it is good to separate the seventh day from the other days of the week. And therefore most Sabbath keepers will do something to mark the beginning and the ending of the Sabbath. (Our family calls it "welcoming the Sabbath" and "saying goodbye to the Sabbath".) This can be as simple as a brief prayer giving thanks to God and recognising the beginning (and later, the ending) of His Sabbath. Of course, sanctifying the Sabbath involves more than merely identifying it's beginning and end, as the whole day is holy to the Lord. The main way in which this done is to abstain from ordinary labour during the Sabbath (this includes any employees and work animals), and to have a "holy convocation" or sacred assembly:


Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
(Leviticus 23:2-3)

A holy convocation or sacred assembly is just that - a gathering for a sacred purpose. This can be as simple as having prayer and bible study with family and/or other believers, or it can be what most would recognise as a "church meeting" with singing, praying, teaching, exhorting, fellowship meal, etc.

If a person is new to keeping Sabbath, things will seem strange at first. One may feel they "have nothing to do" if they aren't mowing the yard or shopping or working or whatnot. But like all things, practice makes perfect. Developing a new habit always seems strange and unusual and odd at first. But once you make it a regular habit, it becomes not only normal, but supernormal. Your entire life settles into a rhythm that just wasn't there before. It is hard to describe, maybe "better caught than taught", but it definitely makes a difference.

And it gets sweeter as the days go by.

One should also remember the command includes an exhortation to work six days (not five with a two day weekend). Not saying if you have a two day weekend off from work that it's sin, but the idea is that man does his work for six days and rests the seventh in honour of Christ the Creator. If you lollygag during the week then the Sabbath won't seem all that special. If you stay busy six days, then the Sabbath really takes on a depth of meaning that just can't be experienced any other way.

And by the way, the same thing can be said for all the appointed times ("feasts") of Jehovah. It's a wonderful thing to have our lives regulated by God's clock rather than man's. You discover things that you simply could not see before. Living the Bible is so much more interesting than just reading about it.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

According to the Bible, the day begins at evening. A 24 hour day ( a whole day) therefore consists of an evening part (night time part), and a day time part. Now, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. It would therefore begin at what we call Friday evening, and continue until the first day of the week, which would begin at what we call Saturday evening.
Calendars have changed somewhat over the centuries (I think the latest change was in the 1700s where several days were dropped off the calendar in order to correct for proper leap years). But the seven day week hasn't.

God showed Israel which day was the correct Sabbath in the wilderness, by giving a double portion on the sixth day. So they knew when the Sabbath was. Jesus likewise kept the Sabbath (otherwise He would have been a sinner).
And Jesus kept the Sabbath on the same day all the other Jews kept the Sabbath. And it is well known that the Jews kept the Sabbath on the day before what the Romans called "the day of the Sun", which they identified as the first day of the week. For several hundred years after the death of the apostles, Christians debated the issue of Sabbath vs Sunday. Sabbath was always considered the day before Sunday. And Sunday in that time has remained the same Sunday as it is in our time.
So that would mean the Sabbath begins at Friday evening, and runs until Saturday evening, at which point the (Biblical) first day of the week would begin.
This understanding of the days beginning in the evening by the way has continued for two thousand years among the religious Sunday keepers with their "vespers" (evening) service. Sabbath vespers occurs Friday evening, and Sunday vespers occurs Saturday evening. They have retained the liturgical concept of the day beginning with the evening part, even though they secular society has been using a midnight to midnight method of starting and stopping the days.
There are some disagreements as to what exactly constitutes the "evening", however. These disputes by the way were going on in the first century in Judea even! Some would say it begins the moment of sunset. Others that it begins when it is fully dark. The Pharisees reached a compromise and said it is after sunset when at least three stars can be visible in the dusky sky (ie twilight). The Bible does not specify, as far as I know, the EXACT MOMENT, it simply says "evening". As the sun sets, the current day is receding and the next day is "dawning" or coming on. There is a brief transition period between one day and the next .Thus, sometimes the Bible speaks of the evening of one day as the evening of the next day. An example would be here:
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
(Leviticus 23:26-32)
The Day of Atonement is on the tenth day of the seventh month. It would begin in the evening that ended the ninth day, and last from one evening to the next. In one verse God said it would be in the tenth day, and in a following verse He said it would be in the ninth day in the even. So the evening starting the tenth day was the same evening ending the ninth day.
Sunset is a pretty clear marker, there is no doubt whatsoever that you are in the "evening" once the sun has set. From sunset to full night there is not much time, that is the transition time from one day to the next, during which the Sabbath is beginning (if it is the evening that ends the sixth day of the week, ie Friday evening).
The commandment is to "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." Holy means "separated", therefore it is good to separate the seventh day from the other days of the week. And therefore most Sabbath keepers will do something to mark the beginning and the ending of the Sabbath. (Our family calls it "welcoming the Sabbath" and "saying goodbye to the Sabbath".) This can be as simple as a brief prayer giving thanks to God and recognising the beginning (and later, the ending) of His Sabbath. Of course, sanctifying the Sabbath involves more than merely identifying it's beginning and end, as the whole day is holy to the Lord. The main way in which this done is to abstain from ordinary labour during the Sabbath (this includes any employees and work animals), and to have a "holy convocation" or sacred assembly:
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
(Leviticus 23:2-3)
A holy convocation or sacred assembly is just that - a gathering for a sacred purpose. This can be as simple as having prayer and bible study with family and/or other believers, or it can be what most would recognise as a "church meeting" with singing, praying, teaching, exhorting, fellowship meal, etc.
If a person is new to keeping Sabbath, things will seem strange at first. One may feel they "have nothing to do" if they aren't mowing the yard or shopping or working or whatnot. But like all things, practice makes perfect. Developing a new habit always seems strange and unusual and odd at first. But once you make it a regular habit, it becomes not only normal, but supernormal. Your entire life settles into a rhythm that just wasn't there before. It is hard to describe, maybe "better caught than taught", but it definitely makes a difference.
And it gets sweeter as the days go by.
One should also remember the command includes an exhortation to work six days (not five with a two day weekend). Not saying if you have a two day weekend off from work that it's sin, but the idea is that man does his work for six days and rests the seventh in honour of Christ the Creator. If you lollygag during the week then the Sabbath won't seem all that special. If you stay busy six days, then the Sabbath really takes on a depth of meaning that just can't be experienced any other way.
And by the way, the same thing can be said for all the appointed times ("feasts") of Jehovah. It's a wonderful thing to have our lives regulated by God's clock rather than man's. You discover things that you simply could not see before. Living the Bible is so much more interesting than just reading about it.

Very well, Beloved. I can understand the history of the command: but how are
we to know, TODAY, when is the Sabbath? Whose history are we to follow?

Brother Villa

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Well, the arguments vary, and on this thread have a type of creative speculative desperation.

The target is clear, no observance of sabbath, any seven-day cycle in the Bible is abrogated and re-spiritualized as simply being Jesus. And everything is interpreted to try to support that idea.

My position:
You can tell how important a scriptural teaching or doctrine is by how convoluted are the arguments marshaled in opposition.

Steven

Sorry to hear you call Col 2:16-17 and Gal 4 is a convoluted explanation, since all that I am trying to say is what that verse says.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



Very well, Beloved. I can understand the history of the command: but how are
we to know, TODAY, when is the Sabbath? Whose history are we to follow?

Brother Villa

Do you have any evidence the days of the week have been changed? I had a book written some 50 odd years ago trying to argue that what we call Saturday is not the original seventh day of the week. I don't know where it is now, but I remember reading it with interest. I also remember there was a big major problem with the premise: the Sabbath Jesus kept was the day before what we know now as Sunday. I have seen absolutely no evidence the calendar was changed in such a way that we can't figure out which day is the seventh day of the week.

If you speak Spanish you realise the last day of the week, the week before Sunday, is "Sabado", which is Spanish for "Sabbath", right?

Some suggest that a calendar change made by Pope Gregory XIII means the days of the week have been confused and, therefore, we can’t know the true seventh day today. It’s true that, in 1582, Pope Gregory made a change to the calendar. (Our calendar today is called the Gregorian calendar because of this change.) However, this change did not interfere with the weekly cycle.
What exactly did Pope Gregory do to the calendar? Before 1582 the Julian calendar had been in effect, instituted by Julius Caesar around 46 BC. But the Julian calendar had calculated the length of the year as 365-1/4 days, but the year is actually eleven minutes fewer than 365-1/4 days. Those eleven minutes accumulated, and by 1582, the numbering of the calendar was ten days out of harmony with the solar system. Gregory simply dropped those ten days out of the numbering of the calendar. It was Thursday, October 4, 1582, and the next day, Friday, should have been October 5. But Gregory made it October 15 instead, dropping exactly ten days to bring the calendar back into harmony with the heavenly bodies.

Did Pope Gregory’s calendar change really confuse the days of the week? No. Friday still followed Thursday, and Saturday still followed Friday. The same seventh day remained, and the weekly cycle was not disturbed. So when we keep the Sabbath on Saturday, we can be positive that our seventh day of the week is the same seventh day of the week that Jesus observed—which He did every week, according to Luke 4:16.

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/fre...day-be-located

[Esaias]

https://rcg.org/books/tshtbl.html

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do you have any evidence the days of the week have been changed? I had a book written some 50 odd years ago trying to argue that what we call Saturday is not the original seventh day of the week. I don't know where it is now, but I remember reading it with interest. I also remember there was a big major problem with the premise: the Sabbath Jesus kept was the day before what we know now as Sunday. I have seen absolutely no evidence the calendar was changed in such a way that we can't figure out which day is the seventh day of the week.
If you speak Spanish you realise the last day of the week, the week before Sunday, is "Sabado", which is Spanish for "Sabbath", right?

Some suggest that a calendar change made by Pope Gregory XIII means the days of the week have been confused and, therefore, we can’t know the true seventh day today. It’s true that, in 1582, Pope Gregory made a change to the calendar. (Our calendar today is called the Gregorian calendar because of this change.) However, this change did not interfere with the weekly cycle.
What exactly did Pope Gregory do to the calendar? Before 1582 the Julian calendar had been in effect, instituted by Julius Caesar around 46 BC. But the Julian calendar had calculated the length of the year as 365-1/4 days, but the year is actually eleven minutes fewer than 365-1/4 days. Those eleven minutes accumulated, and by 1582, the numbering of the calendar was ten days out of harmony with the solar system. Gregory simply dropped those ten days out of the numbering of the calendar. It was Thursday, October 4, 1582, and the next day, Friday, should have been October 5. But Gregory made it October 15 instead, dropping exactly ten days to bring the calendar back into harmony with the heavenly bodies.
Did Pope Gregory’s calendar change really confuse the days of the week? No. Friday still followed Thursday, and Saturday still followed Friday. The same seventh day remained, and the weekly cycle was not disturbed. So when we keep the Sabbath on Saturday, we can be positive that our seventh day of the week is the same seventh day of the week that Jesus observed—which He did every week, according to Luke 4:16.

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/fre...day-be-located

Beloved, I didn't know that those folks in the 14th and 15th century were so scientifically
advanced. I'm still trying to figure out on which side to use the abacus! I'm afraid I'll
have to stick with the 1.2.5 version.
And yes: yo sé que el sábado, en inglés, se pronúncia sá-tur-dai.

I have my own thoughts on the Sabbath (and other issues), but I think I'll hold off until
you folks beat yourself up enough for me to step in the ring and declare the victory.

Brother Villa

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, I didn't know that those folks in the 14th and 15th century were so scientifically advanced. I'm still trying to figure out on which side to use the abacus! I'm afraid I'll have to stick with the 1.2.5 version.

No science or complicated math is ever necessary for knowing the sabbath day. A simple counting skill.

1-2-3-4-5-6-sabbath

Steven

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

No science or complicated math is ever necessary for knowing the sabbath day. A simple counting skill.

1-2-3-4-5-6-sabbath

Steven

I hear what you're saying, Beloved. I'm not arguing with TODAY'S calendar. As
the saying goes: "It Is What It Is."

"One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regards the day,
regards it unto the Lord; and he that regards not the day, to the Lord he does
not regard it."

Brother Villa

[mfblume]

Sabbaths were a mere taste of the rest Adam and Eve were meant to retain in the Garden.

As the Garden was a kingdom, where MAN WHO WORKS CANNOT ABIDE, the promised land was introduced to Israel with only a temporary moment of EDENIC BLESSING OF DOMINION.
· But it was nevertheless an EDENIC BLESSING.

From SABBATH YEAR blessings of the sixth year tripling of harvest,
· To the Sabbath year’s double portion of REST FOR THE LAND (49th and 50th years were Sabbath rests)…
· To the sixth day’s double portion of manna…
· To eating the OLD GRAIN OF THE LAND HARVESTED BY SOMEONE ELSE…
· To the SWORD at the ENTRANCE that only allowed in THOSE WHO DO NOT WORK…
· We see over and over again the message of a RETURN to the EDENIC BLESSING OF KINGDOM DOMINION instead of laboring work and sweat.

No wonder Paul said in Gal 5:1 that there is LIBERTY – a spiritual jubilee – even from LAW, where one was required to commit WORKS FOR SALVATION, for the believer!

We do not have a Sabbath day where there is only a temporal blessing for twenty four hours of the REST God had for man.
· WE HAVE A SABBATH FOREVER!
· And it does not even start after we die and go to heaven.
· IT STARTED ALREADY.

But it’s as it was with Israel.
· Israel got greater glimpses of KINGDOM DOMINION and REST.
· First they are set free from bondage in Egypt.
· Then they gather manna they did not plant.
· Then, to make it better, the manna comes in double the amount on the sixth day, the same day man was created (A REMINDER OF EDEN).
· THEN IT CEASES once they eat OLD GRAIN OF THE LAND THAT WAS HARVESTED BY SOMEONE ELSE.
· THEN AN ANGEL WITH A SWORD, REMINISCENT OF THE SWORD IN THE GARDEN’S ENTRANCE ESCORTS THEM IN.
· And the Lord tells Joshua NOT TO FIGHT, but blow trumpets and holler.

ONCE IN THE LAND, after it is divided it only gets better.
· SABBATH YEARS commence to give rest to the land.
· JUBILEE YEARS come when all is restored to original owners and people to their families.

We see a progressive, increasing revelation of REST and GARDEN DOMINION in Israel’s history with Exodus into Canaan.