For those who want to know...RULES at my church!

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Thad

So where does this place your belief system specifically? how is one saved outside of christianity ? what is the opposite of organized religion?

One is not saved by Christianity, either inside or outside of it. One is saved by Jesus, period.

The opposite of organized religion would be disorganized religion

For me, it simply means that I have no desire to be involved in an organization, denomination, congregation, or church.

I view faith as an individual thing that is between one and the Lord. I think the modern church has put entirely too much power in the hands of others, whether due to laziness, or just because that is what they were taught to do.

Additionally, I am of the opinion that once a group of believers gets organized and starts to set up leadership and structure, they tend to get off track. Eventually their main concerns seem to be about money, programs, and building bigger buildings, as well as having a little spiritual country club with those who think exactly like them.

I am not denying their right to do those things, I just don't want to be a part of it.

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Thad is this for real? The pastor had a dream and they beat a fifteen year
old in the middle of the night.I would have met them at the door with a 357 and called my local law enforcement.

Not if you have been totally brain washed into thinking the pastor is god, and he can do no wrong...believe me I know what that is like...my pastor never did this sort of crazy thing, but was a master at brain washing.

Originally Posted by Michlow

I don't know that I decided to live as "bad as I want", though I'm sure many here might judge it that way.



Ok, this got me a little fired up.

First off, did I ever truly have my eyes on Jesus? The real Jesus? Or did I simply always believe in a Jesus of their making?

They were the ones that told me about God. They were the ones who gave me a "bible study" in which they told me what all the Bible verses meant and why their doctrine was "truth".

From the very beginning Jesus was portrayed as a Tyrannical Fascist who demands perfection and is never satisfied. As a God who is waiting for you to make one tiny mistake so that he can cast you into hell and torture you for all eternity.

So the question remains, did I truly walk away from "truth"? Or did I simply stop accepting the lie?

Mich I do understand how this upsets you because this was what eveyone was saying to us...put your eyes on Jesus and let the pastor just be what he is....well in my case...I thought I did have my eyes on Jesus, but the thing is...the pastor sat between us. He came first and through him we found and knew Jesus...I didn't realise this until I got out and could see clearly....

[Trouvere]

Originally Posted by Thad

trouvere, after reading your post, i went away thinking that perhaps you were placing all the blame on the victim ?? as if it was all their fault and never can someone in leadership be in the wrong?? I am only asking - you can clarify were i perhaps misread your thoughts.

Sheltiedad, is this what you was thinking too ?

Brother Thad if it truly is a victim.The thing I am sick of is adults who can get in their car bellyaching about the UPC.Gas may not be cheap but it is accessable.That is what I am sick of reading.When someone is young and taken advantage of by adults its one thing but to be a grown person and allow someone to enslave you into a cultish mindset it wrong.People can
be charged and go to prison for coming into your house and abusing your kids or doing other things to you and yours.That is what I am addressing.Its nothing about beating up victims.There is a true victim and then there is the victim mindset.Some people just like to remain in that field and bat that ball around for years.It gets old.

[Trouvere]

Originally Posted by Sister Truth Seeker

Not if you have been totally brain washed into thinking the pastor is god, and he can do no wrong...believe me I know what that is like...my pastor never did this sort of crazy thing, but was a master at brain washing.

Sister did this begin when you were a young person or as an adult?
and then evidently from you post to me you voted with your feet.

[Trouvere]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

It sure reads that way - - and then I wonder if the "obey those that have rule over you" would ever come into play for Trouvere?

When people are made to feel that what the minister says is straight from GOD and if they do not comply that they are rebelling against God, how could someone blame them.

Now, it's easy for us to say "well, I would never put up with that" or "I'd never give the key to my house to my pastor", but that's because we aren't UNDER that authority. When someone is - they only feel they are obeying and doing what's right.

I'm appalled to think that someone would "blame" this poor lady. Like I said, until you walk in their shoes, you need to not carry that big ole stick.

Sister that is not what I posted.I am not rebellious.The bible does not teach
us to be zombies for Jesus.

Originally Posted by Michlow

What those who have NOT been there fail to understand is that it is neither an easy or a fast concept, as most of the tools that you used to originally find faith have been tainted.

Spiritual authority, the church, the Bible, rules, and even Jesus himself, have all been twisted and distorted and used to manipulate and control.

People think that I have given up, what they fail to understand is that it has taken everything that I have to not chuck it all away completely. And I have actually found peace where I am. For the first time in 7 years I don't spend all my waking hours worried about all the things in my life that are going to send me to hell. Actually I don't think about hell at all.....

Yes they have been, but not by God....what saved me Mich was very early on in church I was given a scripture by God...he spoke to me when I really knew nothing, but was already wondering...."God who can I believe, how do I know what is truth and what is man's ego?"...He gave me this scripture


1 Corinthians 2
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


I clung to that verse because He gave it to me, and in the end it was what brought me out...because my prayer always each day was Lord show me truth...not mans truth but your!

Originally Posted by pelathais

Same for me. When I got saved in my teens, the church was the only thing that existed for me. As my church experience soured I began to fundamentally question my beliefs and the whole idea of religion.

With all of my doubts and the pain I was going through I hit a spiritual bottom. Investigating the claims of atheism and of other beliefs, I wasn't satisfied with much I was reading or seeing. Then the thought came to me, "With all of your doubts, what if you gave God the benefit of the doubt?" I certainly had enough doubt to spare. It was about that time that things began to turn around for me.

I'd like to think that perhaps He had given me the benefit His doubt as well.

It is religion that has the problems....there is not a church been built that does not have the influence of man and what that man feels is the correct way to be...I have struggled with finding a new church....I don't know if I ever will, and I will always sit and wonder and alway be cautious...and hold a part of me back....never from God but from church yes!

Originally Posted by Trouvere

I am so glad my relationship with Jesus has been about relationship first.
I found truth after loving the truth personified.I don't do what I do because of
anyone selling or convincing me.That wonderful presense of the Holy Ghost cemented the deal.Sometimes you have to get back to the basics and just
start from scratch.I am glad it did not involve others pushing anything on me
or trying to make me feel guilty.I just love God.I hope that some who have walked away from churches that teach the truth about salvation would find a church that does and start over.Not every church is the same.I see alot have posted the initials UPC.Sorry but if your relationship with God was based on a religous organization then you were based not on truth.Truth is what the bible teaches.Not all churches that belong to the org UPC are the same.People are not the same.Culture is not the same.Mindset is not the same.Live and learn some things.Be willing to recognize maybe its you that
had your priorities out of order.Its better to be drawn to Jesus by his spirit than be sold like you bought a used car.Relationships change over the years.
Some change for better and some for worse.If your relationship with your pastor and congregation has soured then maybe its time for a checkup with
Dr.Jesus.No one abuses us unless we allow them or we are children who are cornered.Those I feel for but for a adult who has a pair of shoes on their feet I have never known a church to practice entrapment.You just get in your car and drive.No one is making you.I refuse to hear rants and raves about those
boo whoo hooo who were so hurt by a certain kind of church and are still
so mad that they are holding such a grudge that they won't go to a church that teaches at least the truth about salvation.Come on.Jesus didn't do it to you man did.Don't hold Jesus accountable.He doesn't have to take you to heaven if you don't want to go.Be honest.Did they abuse you or did you allow them to abuse you and now you are voicing how mad you are at them when you should be kicking yourself in the pants instead? There is a difference.

If you have read all the posts here you will see that for us that were abused and wounded our first real experience with church was in an abusive church, so we did not have the knowledge or skills to do as you suggest. Brainwashing is a very subtle thing, you don't know its happening and you don't know that seeds are planted...when you come into the church as I did, with an open heart and completely believing the pastor was the highest authority and there was no questioning him....I had no way of knowing this was not how it should be...I was totally absorbed into my church...it WAS my life, I had nothing else....everything thing we did was about the church...EVERYTHING...holidays, vacations, weekends, our lives were the church...we thought that was how you served God...I am sorry but your really not seeing it....

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Trouvere, you've written alot of what I was thinking. We are accountable for ourselves. The Bible teaches us God is love, just, righteous, longsuffering, full of compassion, .....the bottom line is God is good. If someone has skewed our view of God, it was not God nor was it God's word that did it. You want to KNOW God, study his word. It's His testimony to us of Himself.

Easy to say....if you know this....if you have been taught differently you don't understand....you both have not really grasped what is going on here...