Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Newman

1. I believe but have not yet verified that the age of consent was 16 up until the community arrived and the age was changed in 2005. Will try to find out for certain later in the day.

Once it was changed, they should have complied.

2. Do you understand that this has been going on for generations and they are happy with their lives as they are? Do you understand that Texas leads the nation in teenage pregnancies? And every forth pregant teenager is having a second child? (A large percentage of these are adult fathers)?

So because teenagers are having babies, even as young as 13 or 14, should we legalize sex between adults and minors, and do away with statutory rape laws?

3. Do we take babies from all minor mothers? What if most of the family has had teenage pregnancies for generations? What if particular areas of Texas have higher concentrations of teenage pregnancies such as hispanic communities along the border?

Wrong question, Newman. If a secular woman allowed her 13 or 14 year old daughter to be married off to a 45 year old man, (or have sex with him), do you think that adult woman should be prosecuted? I do.

These people aren't being prosecuted simply because of teen pregnancies.

4. Do you understand who is pregnant right now? A seventeen year old who will be eighteen next month, a sixteen year old who is also almost 17 and finally they have counted another teenager pregnant because she refused to take the test. I don't know her age.

So they can only prosecute based on who is pregnant right now, and not based on a 16 year old who has a 2-year-old?

5. Do you understand that CPS went in and looked at more than 400 children and the most they can say about it is that they have found a pattern of abuse due to some babies being conceived to teenage mothers?

Physical abuse? No
Well fed and healthy? Remarkably so.
Tales of horror to tell? Nope not that either.

I don't know, Newman--it seems like quite a few women who have left the FLDS have "tales of horror to tell."

Why would we want to model our laws after ignorance? I'm glad there are laws that prevent old men from marrying little girls. I DO think there is a difference between a 40 year old man marrying a 14 year old girl, than if that same 14 year old girl married a 16 year old boy, or even someone her own age. The dynamics are different. I know you are looking at this from seriously legal angles, but that isn't all there is to it.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

According to the law, this is what they must do. It is a bad situation, and I place that blame on the compound members and not the State of Texas.

I do agree that the members of the compound are to blame, ultimately, but in the meantime, the state is being a bit short sighted if they are only concerned with the letter of the law, and less about the over-all wellbeing of the children.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I do agree that the members of the compound are to blame, ultimately, but in the meantime, the state is being a bit short sighted if they are only concerned with the letter of the law, and less about the over-all wellbeing of the children.

Who is the mother? They may have three?

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It most certainly is! Especially with underaged girls!!!! Sick and stupid. I'm glad they pulled every living child out of that terrible mess!

And just where do you think all of these children are going to end up if parental rights are terminated?

I personally visited a 7 year old child in the foster care system that was living with her foster mother (no father which is often the case) in a drug infested, fire-bombed inner city neighborhood. The house directly across the street and to the left of this house were gutted as were almost half of the houses on the street. It looked like a war zone.

But hey, maybe most of them will find good homes... I am sure Texas is prepared to handle an extra 400 kids for the long haul.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Newman

1. I believe but have not yet verified that the age of consent was 16 up until the community arrived and the age was changed in 2005. Will try to find out for certain later in the day.

2. Do you understand that this has been going on for generations and they are happy with their lives as they are? Do you understand that Texas leads the nation in teenage pregnancies? And every forth pregant teenager is having a second child? (A large percentage of these are adult fathers)?

3. Do we take babies from all minor mothers? What if most of the family has had teenage pregnancies for generations? What if particular areas of Texas have higher concentrations of teenage pregnancies such as hispanic communities along the border?

4. Do you understand who is pregnant right now? A seventeen year old who will be eighteen next month, a sixteen year old who is also almost 17 and finally they have counted another teenager pregnant because she refused to take the test. I don't know her age.

5. Do you understand that CPS went in and looked at more than 400 children and the most they can say about it is that they have found a pattern of abuse due to some babies being conceived to teenage mothers?

Physical abuse? No
Well fed and healthy? Remarkably so.
Tales of horror to tell? Nope not that either.

But let's traumatize every single one of them anyway. How dare they choose to marry off their daughters at the same age or older than most civlizations had done for thousands of years.

You sound like an attorney to cares about the law.

[Kae]

Originally Posted by Rico

Well, just remember that, if the day comes when CPS raids your church and takes away your children, over the church's religious beliefs, you wil be guilty because of being in or amongst them. Sorry, Sister, but that is as lame a reason for taking away peoples' kids as I have ever heard.

Also, don't think for a minute that what happened in TX can't happen in apostolic churches because the church I used to belong to was threatened with the same thing that happened to these people in TX several years ago. One of the young girls made a complaint against her stepfather. CPS was in the process of their investigation and wanted to interview different members of the church. (What the church had to do with what was going on with this family is beyond me.) When the pastor refused to allow it, CPS threatened to take away everyone's children in the church. All of this because the church was considered a cult because of it's dress standards, the way people shunned the world, and because of the way the church worshipped (it was referred to as "going to the dance" in that county). Fortunately, CPS did not make good on their threat and the case was settled.

We should all be educated on what CPS can and can't do when they come knocking on our doors. The biggest reason we have fear is because we really don't know what they can and can't do. Find out, so you won't live in fear of the state.

They reason all they did was threaten was because they couldn't do anything else.

[Steve Epley]

For the state to go in there with a warrant based on a bogus call that could have been disproven very easily gives me pause. Although I think the behaviour in the group is an abomination. This long reach of this arm of the state should be frightening to say the least. The Amish have been marrying young forever however not into polygamy BUT against some state incest laws. Are they going to raid the Amish? Those who can remember Lester Roloff can recall a young man made an accusation about physical abuse they state came in to both the boys ranch and girls home and forcibly removed them. A new govenor was elected because of it. This accusation was proven bogus but Lester Roloff was jailed before proven innocent. Once the state gets it's foot in the door it will never get released.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Newman

And just where do you think all of these children are going to end up if parental rights are terminated?

I personally visited a 7 year old child in the foster care system that was living with her foster mother (no father which is often the case) in a drug infested, fire-bombed inner city neighborhood. The house directly across the street and to the left of this house were gutted as were almost half of the houses on the street. It looked like a war zone.

But hey, maybe most of them will find good homes... I am sure Texas is prepared to handle an extra 400 kids for the long haul.

You are probably right on that account as it's CPS involvement. I would prefer a "non-profit" organization to handle it, but that isn't going to be the case.

[Kae]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

For the state to go in there with a warrant based on a bogus call that could have been disproven very easily gives me pause. Although I think the behaviour in the group is an abomination. This long reach of this arm of the state should be frightening to say the least. The Amish have been marrying young forever however not into polygamy BUT against some state incest laws. Are they going to raid the Amish?

They Amish don't live behind a locked gate in one community with armed guards.

[Newman]

MissBrattified-

1. Did the members even know about the change in law?

2. How many INDIVIDUAL prosecutions would have to occur to end any practice of underage marriage in that community?

3. Disgruntled former members? Ha that is something that never gets embellished elsewhere eh?

Read what another former member has to say....

"THESE PEOPLE NEED A VOICE!

I left the FLDS three years ago when I was 23. I had a very happy childhood free from television, drugs, and abuse. These are some of the things I personally witnessed:

When a girl thought she was ready to get married, she would tell her father that she was ready to move on. Her father would turn her over to the prophet (Rulon or Warren Jeffs) to be placed in marriage. I saw Rulon many times tell the girl that she needed to be 18 before she was married, and I saw some girls ask to be married anyway, and sometimes he would give in to their request. It was not a common thing to see a girl younger than 15 get married, but if they did, it was always the result of her father putting a lot of pressure on Rulon or Warren to do something about their daughter. No one was ever forced. I saw several girls tell the prophet that she didn't want to marry so and so and that was the end of it (I know this because word really got around). Rulon and Warren always asked a girl if she had anyone in mind before she was placed with someone. Sometimes they would ask for an older guy with several wives already.

You've got to realize that the only thing these girls really lived for was getting married and having children. They do not have the same mindset as your typical teenage girl. Some were rebellious and wild teenagers sure, but 90% of the girls I grew up with only wanted to get married and have children. At the same time, 90% of the men didn't want their daughters to leave home and were very protective of them. My father wept when my older sister got married (she was 19) but he knew it would make her happy.

As for the men. 95% of the men I knew were honorable and trustworthy. They had beautiful families that loved them and would do anything for them. "by their fruits you shall know them". I challenge anyone to look at those children in Texas and honestly say "they are a product of pedophiles and immorality". An example of immorality would be someone that advertises their body by wearing next to nothing, uses foul language, uses drugs and exhibits no self control. You will not find that with these people. Sex is not even in their vocabulary. Literally.

I personally know every man on that Ranch in Texas. Search the world over, you will not find men more dedicated, more committed, and more focused on living in Peace and living their religion than within that group. They do not care what anyone else does, they only want to live their religion.

You should also note, half of the children raised within the FLDS, end up leaving on their own free will and choice. 95% of them you will never hear from again. 5% seem to spread rumor and false accusations everywhere they turn either because they are lonely and need someone or something to blame, or because they really were hurt or abused and somehow think it's the church's fault."

[google a sentence to get to website as address is very long].