Random Questions Thread

[Amanah]

Incorporating Esaias' explanation

Timeline for Matthew 24 using a preterist/historicist understanding and avoiding futuristic misconceptions.

Section 1: Destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD)

- Verses 1-3: Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple
- Verses 4-14: Signs leading up to the destruction:
- False prophets and messiahs (4-5)
- Wars and rumors of wars (6-7)
- Famines, earthquakes, and pestilences (7-8)
- Persecution of Christians (9-10)
- Gospel preached to all nations (14)
- Verses 15-22: The abomination of desolation (Roman destruction of Jerusalem)
- Verses 23-28: Warning against false prophets and messiahs
- Verses 29-31: Cosmic disturbances and the sign of the Son of Man (Jesus' victory and exaltation)
- Verse 32: The parable of the fig tree (Israel's destruction)

Section 2: Second Coming

- Verses 36-44: Unknown day and hour of Jesus' return
- Verses 45-51: Faithfulness and watchfulness required

Note:
- The events in Section 1 occurred in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.
- Section 2 refers to the Second Coming of Jesus, which has not yet occurred.

This timeline highlights the two distinct sections of Matthew 24, separating the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem from the Second Coming of Jesus.

[shag]

Thank you, Esaias, for taking the time to “learn me”
It’s very much appreciated.

Regarding the Wheat and Tares (interesting to me that only Matthew brought up the resurrection at the crucifixion, and the Wheat and tares parable) but anyway, the Wheat and Tares….


Do you put that as Jesus speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, (as in Matt 24, two grinding at the mill etc) or in our future?




Matt. 13:24..Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.25..But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.26..When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27..“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28..“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29..“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30..Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36..Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37..He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.38..The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39..and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40..“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41..The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.42..They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.43..Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.




That last verse (then will the righteous shine) reminds me of the first part of Daniel 12:3.
(While the last part of Daniel 3 reminds me of 1 Thess. 2:16, Matt.23:15, Maybe a connection, maybe not)

[shag]

Another question:


Rev. 22:14-15 has sinners still existing outside the gates of city.


Wouldn’t that just be pointing out that right now, to get Into the body of Christ, which is the new Jerusalem come down from heaven, (Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22-24, Rev. 21:9) and outside the body of Christ are sinners? (1 Cor. 6:9-10)


Because in the future, wickedness and sinners are destroyed, so they could not exist/be alive outside of a certain place or people.
?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shag

Another question:


Rev. 22:14-15 has sinners still existing outside the gates of city.


Wouldn’t that just be pointing out that right now, to get Into the body of Christ, which is the new Jerusalem come down from heaven, (Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22-24, Rev. 21:9) and outside the body of Christ are sinners? (1 Cor. 6:9-10)


Because in the future, wickedness and sinners are destroyed, so they could not exist/be alive outside of a certain place or people.
?

Yes, all sorts of wickedness exist outside the New Jerusalem and the gates never close.

Book of Revelation is exactly what its name implies. The word άηοκάλψιϛ means to uncover a mystery. Therefore the “symbols” are to uncover the truth of the group who is using the άηοκάλψιϛ to relay their mystery.

Revelation 21:23 God makes a lamb glow in the dark? Maybe it has another deeper meaning?

[Amanah]

Some have offered the following explanation for people in Rev 22:
That some in Rev 22 were resurrected to immortality and others are believers who aren't immortal but are kept alive via the tree leaves. I find this explanation unsettling. Along with, as Shag mentioned, sinners there.

But, at the end of the book Rev 22:20, Jesus is saying that he will come quickly, so, Revelation is not chronological.

Possibly part of Revelation 22 is harkening back to an earlier point in the timeline of eschatology?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Thank you, Esaias, for taking the time to “learn me”
It’s very much appreciated.

Regarding the Wheat and Tares (interesting to me that only Matthew brought up the resurrection at the crucifixion, and the Wheat and tares parable) but anyway, the Wheat and Tares….


Do you put that as Jesus speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, (as in Matt 24, two grinding at the mill etc) or in our future?




Matt. 13:24..Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.25..But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.26..When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27..“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28..“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29..“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30..Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36..Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37..He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.38..The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39..and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40..“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41..The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.42..They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.43..Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.




That last verse (then will the righteous shine) reminds me of the first part of Daniel 12:3.
(While the last part of Daniel 3 reminds me of 1 Thess. 2:16, Matt.23:15, Maybe a connection, maybe not)

The parable of the wheat and tares gives a general overview of the progress of the Kingdom, showing its mixed character (containing both good and bad), which is a prominent feature of many of His other Kingdom parables. He is saying that for now the Kingdom contains both good and bad, but there will come a time of separation (just as in farming the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest), at which time the tares will be burned and the wheat gathered into the barn. Since the point of the parable is to illustrate the mixed nature of the Kingdom and its eventual resolution, rather than to give a definitive timeline of prophesied events, I would not try to press the details of the parable too much to try and create a time line of "fulfillment".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Another question:


Rev. 22:14-15 has sinners still existing outside the gates of city.


Wouldn’t that just be pointing out that right now, to get Into the body of Christ, which is the new Jerusalem come down from heaven, (Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22-24, Rev. 21:9) and outside the body of Christ are sinners? (1 Cor. 6:9-10)


Because in the future, wickedness and sinners are destroyed, so they could not exist/be alive outside of a certain place or people.
?

Revelation 22:13-15 KJV
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Jesus says that those who obey His commandments are those who have access to the tree of life (immortality) and who may enter in through the gates into the city, contrasted with those who are outside (those who are not allowed entrance to the city) who are described as dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc. The city was previously identified as the Bride, and therefore is not a location but a people (the church).

I do not see anything in this verse as indicating a particular time frame. If this is describing the after-judgment scene, then nobody may enter the city until after the judgment. So obviously this is not saying anything about the status of the human race "after" any particular time frame or event, but rather is describing the moral condition of those who are either obedient to God or not, those who have access to immortality or who do not, who have access to the city of God or who do not.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Matthew 24:29-32 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a statement about what would be happening "after the tribulation of those days", that is, after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The cosmic disturbances are standard prophetic language referring to the overturning of secular and religious power structures (namely, the overthrow of the priestly and Pharisaic power over the people of God). The "sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory" is a direct reference to the vision in Daniel 7 of the Son of Man coming in the clouds TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS:

Daniel 7:13-14 KJV
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The vision in Daniel is explained thus:

Daniel 7:16-18 KJV
I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. [17] These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. [18] But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

In the vision, one like the Son of Man takes dominion. In the explanation, the saints of the Most High take dominion. See here also:

Daniel 7:19-22 KJV
Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; [20] And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. [21] I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; [22] Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And here:

Daniel 7:26-27 KJV
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The vision of the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and glory to the Ancient of Days is interpreted by the angel as the victory of the saints of God against the antichristian powers of the world.

Jesus often referred to Himself as "the Son of Man" and in fact told the priests that they were in fact witnessing - at the time of His arrest and trial - the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds with power and glory:

Matthew 26:62-64 KJV
And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? [63] But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. [64] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The word "hereafter" means literally "from now on", from this current point in time going forward into the future. They, the priests, would at that time begin to see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of Heaven.

Jesus, dying, and resurrecting, IS the victory of the saints over all enemies. His suffering, death, resurrection, and ascension, was His being presented before the Ancient of Days as the Messiah, and the Lamb of God, and the victorious Anointed One. His death, resurrection, and ascension is the Christological fulfillment of the vision in Daniel chapter 7. It is through His death and His triumph over death that the saints are able to enter the Kingdom and achieve victory. "This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith".

While the ultimate fulfillment of the saints victory is consummated in the final judgment and the destruction of death itself, we have the victory NOW because Christ is the archetypal Israel. It is only by being in Christ that we can lay any claim to being part of Israel.

So "seeing the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds" etc is referencing the nations being made aware that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the victorious one seen in Daniel 7, the fulfillment of prophecy, the Messiah. They would see THE SIGN "of the Son of Man in Heaven coming in the clouds", that is, they would see Daniel 7's fulfillment. He is not talking about people seeing a Jesus-figure in the literal skies.

After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jewish power was negated, the nations saw the sign that Jesus is the Christ, and His messengers went forth with the Gospel to gather the elect from the four directions. Basically, just like He said. Futurists confound this part of the Olivet prophecy with the return of Jesus and the resurrection of the saints. This is largely due to their unfamiliarity with Bible prophecy in general and prophetic language in particular.


Verses 36-51 are speaking of the return of Jesus. Notice, there is a difference between "the coming of the Son of Man", and the "return" of the Lord, in this prophecy and throughout the teachings of Jesus. The coming of the Lord in judgment upon Jerusalem was clearly taught by Him numerous times, and it was attended with signs that would warn of its impending occurrence. The RETURN of the Lord to resurrect the saints is always spoken of as being sudden and unexpected, with no prior attending warning signs.

(your last paragraph, vs.36-51)
But about that day or hour no one knows,

The nearest antecedent to “THAT”, goes to a distant future event, instead of the one he was just talking about?


Do you view the parallel gospel and Luke, Luke 2437, vultures is also talking about Jesus second coming, and not the judgment in ad 70?


Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

(your last paragraph, vs.36-51)
But about that day or hour no one knows,

The nearest antecedent to “THAT”, goes to a distant future event, instead of the one he was just talking about?


Do you view the parallel gospel and Luke, Luke 2437, vultures is also talking about Jesus second coming, and not the judgment in ad 70?


Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Matthew 24:37-51 KJV
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. [45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is part of the Olivet Prophecy. This is not contained in Luke's account of the Olivet Prophecy. However, we read this in Luke 17:

Luke 17:20-37 KJV
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. [22] And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. [23] And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. [24] For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. [25] But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. [26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. [27] They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. [28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; [29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. [30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. [31] In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. [32] Remember Lot's wife. [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [37] And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

This was a different occasion, and a different message/teaching. They do contain some similar expressions, however, because the ideas expressed are similar. So it is no surprise that Jesus would repeat a phrase or use some of the same terminology on different occassions. Both of these passages appear to be talking about His return to reward his servants.

Notice that both describe an event that is unexpected as to its timing, that the only way to be prepared for it is to be on watch at all times. Not because one would then "see the signs of the approaching event", but rather that one would simply be always ready no matter when the event occurred.

Whereas in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem, there are definite signs given which are indicators of its soon destruction, which people were supposed to be looking for. The metaphor or analogy of the changing season being indicated by natural signs is used to describe the pre-AD 70 signs of Jerusalem's doom.

Clearly, these are two separate events being described. One has signs prefiguring its approach, the other is unexpected and its timing is wholly unknown. The first can be prepared for by looking for the attendant signs. The other can only be prepared for by being prepared at all times. In regard to the return of the Lord, the disciples were not to be deceived by anyone claiming that He had returned unnoticed by them. There would be NO NEED to "notify" anyone that the Lord had returned. He would not be returning invisibly and unnoticed by most or all. Yet there is clearly a need to "notify" people that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was in fact a coming of the Lord in judgment. The fact the Roman army attacked Jerusalem in itself would signify nothing to anyone about the Lord or any coming of the Lord, unless they are taught what "the coming of the Lord" means Scripturally. Just because Rome destroyed an uppity tributary city would signify nothing to anyone about Jesus unless they are taught that He prophesied that city's destruction as the vengeance of God, and understood that Scripturally, when the Lord executed venegance upon a city or nation, it was often referred to as "the coming of the Lord". Whereas the return of the Lord would require nobody to notify anyone of anything, all would see it, recognise it, and the effects would be immediate. So, once again, these must be two different events.

[Amanah]

If you heard a teaching that any of the following could be evidence that someone has received the Holy Ghost, what would you think, how would you respond

Speaking in Tongues

1. Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2. Acts 10:44-47 - While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
3. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Prophecy

1. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Spiritual Gifts

1. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal... For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

So, for example, if God used someone to perform a notable miracle, but they had never spoken in tongues.