Changes within UPC (recent)

[Carl]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Then why did Jesus tell the thief that was hanging on a tree with Him that he would in the same day be with Jesus in paradise?

The very simple explanation I've always heard for this is the comma in this verse. Remove the puncuation which the translators added and it means something different. "I say to you today you will be with me in paradise". They were not going anywhere that day but would share in a future place and time of peace and bliss.

Its interesting that the greek old testament used the word paradise instead of garden for Eden. Also paradise is mentioned in Revelation as the place where the tree of life is in the midst of, heaven. So it seems paradise is not a halfway there place on the way to heaven.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Carl

The very simple explanation I've always heard for this is the comma in this verse. Remove the puncuation which the translators added and it means something different. "I say to you today you will be with me in paradise". They were not going anywhere that day but would share in a future place and time of peace and bliss.

Its interesting that the greek old testament used the word paradise instead of garden for Eden. Also paradise is mentioned in Revelation as the place where the tree of life is in the midst of, heaven. So it seems paradise is not a halfway there place on the way to heaven.

Yes PTL!

[Abiding Now]

Changes within the UPC. Last Saturday night I understand they set their clocks back one hour. Now that's just a rumor you understand.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Carl

The very simple explanation I've always heard for this is the comma in this verse. Remove the puncuation which the translators added and it means something different. "I say to you today you will be with me in paradise". They were not going anywhere that day but would share in a future place and time of peace and bliss.

Its interesting that the greek old testament used the word paradise instead of garden for Eden. Also paradise is mentioned in Revelation as the place where the tree of life is in the midst of, heaven. So it seems paradise is not a halfway there place on the way to heaven.

Okay Carl, I'm sorry but that really to me did not make much sense. Why would Jesus say Today which was the same day that he and the thief died would go into paradise. Also II Corinthians 5:8 states to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Maybe that is why I am having a hard time with your explanations.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Oh how horrible that would be!

I guess UPC Preachers are better than the Elders of the Churches Paul established.

Acts 20:33-35


33I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. 34Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

The Elder/Pastors in the New Testament were instructed to work with their own hands.

The government of the typical UPC church is so out of line with what the bible intended and sets up the potential for every pastor to fall. I look back at how one man is awarded 100% tithes as a salary. It is insane. All the the other offices put in countless hours for free.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Okay Carl, I'm sorry but that really to me did not make much sense. Why would Jesus say Today which was the same day that he and the thief died would go into paradise. Also II Corinthians 5:8 states to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Maybe that is why I am having a hard time with your explanations.

BrotherEastman, I am somewhat amazed that you (apparently) fail to recognize the "esoteric" nature of our Lord's statement to the thief on the cross, saying, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).

I think the most important thing to first determine in attempting to grasp the significance and understanding of our Lord's words, is "who" it is that is speaking; that is, the Spirit or the man Christ Jesus.

If it be the latter then I'm of the same opinion as Carl. On that day in which both He and the thief experienced death by crucifixion, neither of them went to paradise, that is, the holy city of God located in the invisible heavens. However, if it were the former (which, BTW I believe to be the case), then our Lord's statement is an example whereby "... God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were" (Romans 4:17).

If the former was the case, and "... one day is with the Lord as a thousand years" (II Peter 3:8), then the word "today" meant that both our Lord and the repentant thief would indeed be in paradise at some point within the 1,000 year period in which our Lord uttered the statement regarding their mutually assured destiny.

In other words, in this case our Lord's statement to the thief represents an example of the manner in which God "conceals (the truth about) a matter" (Proverbs 25:2), and expects that we are to search out its proper meaning. Therefore I agree with Carl's observation, albeit he perhaps did not provide a full or satisfactory explanation (I beg Carl's forgiveness if I am amiss in this).

Oft-times a cursory reading of a scriptural passage causes one to either fail to grasp what is being expressed, or neglecting to compare its contents to other associated passages, its "deeper" message is missed or overlooked. I think this is the case with many when reading our Lord's response to the thief's repentance on that momentous occasion.

My thoughts about the matter tendered for your consideration of its merits.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Okay Carl, I'm sorry but that really to me did not make much sense. Why would Jesus say Today which was the same day that he and the thief died would go into paradise. Also II Corinthians 5:8 states to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Maybe that is why I am having a hard time with your explanations.

Sounds like we're starting another thread on the resurrection Bro. Eastman. It is actually the word(s)"to day" which means "now" instead of "today" which means a period of night and day. Maybe some of the experts here could explain this. Really all we have to do is move the comma and see the difference in Luke 23:43:

"verily I say unto thee,.................to day thou will be with me in paradise"

this is how it reads with the comma before compared to if the comma had been placed after to day:

"verily I say unto thee to day,................thou will be with me in paradise"

II Cor. 5:8 taken in context is talking about being with the Lord in the new resurrected body not unclothed or naked. This is similar to the discussion of the two types of bodies in I Cor. chapter 15.

[Dante]

I dream of a day when men AND woman can have facial hair and not face discrimination.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Dante

I dream of a day when men AND woman can have facial hair and not face discrimination.

I dream of a day when all bald men, like me, can have hair on their heads and women don't have to have facial hair if they both so desire.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Okay Carl, I'm sorry but that really to me did not make much sense. Why would Jesus say Today which was the same day that he and the thief died would go into paradise. Also II Corinthians 5:8 states to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Maybe that is why I am having a hard time with your explanations.

Im beginning to understand more and more that 2 Cor 5:8 is quoted OUT OF CONTEXT than any other scripture.

Not the fuller context here.

2 Cor. 5:8


6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The being present with the Lord DOES NOT occur until the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST!

Does this not fit perfectly with the scriptures about Christs coming?

John 14:1-3

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

We are not present with the Lord until his second coming.